[cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Discussion:

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-20 14:50:53 UTC

I am wondering if we should do a limited SR release to pickup Java 8
patches. As it stands, Eclipse users interested in Java 8 would have to hunt
for and install at least two patches, which doesn't paint Eclipse in a good
light.

Thoughts?

- Konstantin

Fred Bricon

2014-03-20 15:40:47 UTC

Permalink

+1000

Worst case scenario, all Java 8 feature patches should be made available
from a unique p2 repo
Le 20 mars 2014 15:51, "Konstantin Komissarchik" <
***@oracle.com> a Ã©crit :

> I am wondering if we should do a limited SR release to pickup Java 8
> patches. As it stands, Eclipse users interested in Java 8 would have to
> hunt for and install at least two patches, which doesnât paint Eclipse in a
> good light.
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> - Konstantin
>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
>

Pascal Rapicault

2014-03-20 16:09:44 UTC

Permalink

I can't agree more.
On 20/03/2014 8:40 AM, Fred Bricon wrote:
>
> +1000
>
> Worst case scenario, all Java 8 feature patches should be made
> available from a unique p2 repo
>
> Le 20 mars 2014 15:51, "Konstantin Komissarchik"
> <***@oracle.com
> <mailto:***@oracle.com>> a écrit :
>
> I am wondering if we should do a limited SR release to pickup Java
> 8 patches. As it stands, Eclipse users interested in Java 8 would
> have to hunt for and install at least two patches, which doesn't
> paint Eclipse in a good light.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> - Konstantin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> <mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

Mickael Istria

2014-03-20 16:27:09 UTC

Permalink

It tend to agree with it. Java 8 is something big that we (as tool
developers in general) should encourage people to adopt. So it's IMO
worth making an exception to the release train and try to get a SR3 that
supports it Java 8 out-of-the-box.
--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat <http://www.jboss.org/tools>
My blog <http://mickaelistria.wordpress.com> - My Tweets
<http://twitter.com/mickaelistria>

Markus Knauer

2014-03-20 16:45:56 UTC

Permalink

I had this thought, too, and it has been brought up in some discussions at
EclipseCon. It should be in our interest to make it as easy as possible for
our users to get the integration with Java 8.

*If* we decide for a SR3, what would be the deliverables? An update of the
packages only? Or only some packages? An update of the common Simultaneous
Release repository? Or something else?

Thanks, Markus
On 20 Mar 2014 09:29, "Mickael Istria" <***@redhat.com> wrote:

> It tend to agree with it. Java 8 is something big that we (as tool
> developers in general) should encourage people to adopt. So it's IMO worth
> making an exception to the release train and try to get a SR3 that supports
> it Java 8 out-of-the-box.
> --
> Mickael Istria
> Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat <http://www.jboss.org/tools>
> My blog <http://mickaelistria.wordpress.com> - My Tweets<http://twitter.com/mickaelistria>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
>

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-20 17:12:30 UTC

Permalink

Markus Keller

2014-03-20 17:31:15 UTC

Permalink

I don't think the Kepler repository should get the JDT Java 8 patches.

The Java 8 work was a huge effort, and this code has not yet received the
in-depth testing that people expect from an official service release.
While it adds an eagerly-awaited feature for some users, it also bears
quite some risk for all the others that don't need Java 8 support at this
time.

Luna is coming soon, so the waiting time is not that long. Until then,
Java 8 support should not be actively pushed into existing installs. But a
common patch for all affected Kepler projects would of course be nice.

Markus Keller (Eclipse JDT UI)

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>,
"'EPP Developer Mailing List'" <epp-***@eclipse.org>
Date: 2014-03-20 18:13
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-20 17:51:49 UTC

Permalink

Hmm. The wording of the Java 8 support announcement left an impression that
the support is finished and ready to be used. If it's not, perhaps we should
clarify the announcement. On the other hand, if it is ready to be used to
the best of everyone's ability, that's all we can ever hope for anyway.
Worst case scenario, the user can always roll back to SR2.

A single patch repo would be better than hunting for multiple patches, but
still leaves a bad impression about Eclipse in the minds of our users.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Markus
Keller
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 10:31 AM
To: Cross project issues; EPP Developer Mailing List
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I don't think the Kepler repository should get the JDT Java 8 patches.

The Java 8 work was a huge effort, and this code has not yet received the
in-depth testing that people expect from an official service release. While
it adds an eagerly-awaited feature for some users, it also bears quite some
risk for all the others that don't need Java 8 support at this time.

Luna is coming soon, so the waiting time is not that long. Until then, Java
8 support should not be actively pushed into existing installs. But a common
patch for all affected Kepler projects would of course be nice.

Markus Keller (Eclipse JDT UI)

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>,
"'EPP Developer Mailing List'" <epp-***@eclipse.org>
Date: 2014-03-20 18:13
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

_____

Daniel Megert

2014-03-21 08:02:13 UTC

Permalink

The announcement was correct, but you need to be aware that it's the first
(i.e. 1.0) version of the Eclipse support for Java 8 and as we all know it
will have bugs. The Java 8 support comes with big changes in the compiler
and other areas of JDT, which means new bugs can also affect users that
don't need/want Java 8. This contradicts with the user expectation that
each service release will be more stable and have less bugs than the
previous drop.

Dani

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>,
"'EPP Developer Mailing List'" <epp-***@eclipse.org>
Date: 20.03.2014 18:52
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

Hmm? The wording of the Java 8 support announcement left an impression
that the support is finished and ready to be used. If it?s not, perhaps we
should clarify the announcement. On the other hand, if it is ready to be
used to the best of everyone?s ability, that?s all we can ever hope for
anyway. Worst case scenario, the user can always roll back to SR2.

A single patch repo would be better than hunting for multiple patches, but
still leaves a bad impression about Eclipse in the minds of our users.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Markus
Keller
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 10:31 AM
To: Cross project issues; EPP Developer Mailing List
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I don't think the Kepler repository should get the JDT Java 8 patches.

The Java 8 work was a huge effort, and this code has not yet received the
in-depth testing that people expect from an official service release.
While it adds an eagerly-awaited feature for some users, it also bears
quite some risk for all the others that don't need Java 8 support at this
time.

Luna is coming soon, so the waiting time is not that long. Until then,
Java 8 support should not be actively pushed into existing installs. But a
common patch for all affected Kepler projects would of course be nice.

Markus Keller (Eclipse JDT UI)

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com
>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
>, "'EPP Developer Mailing List'" <epp-***@eclipse.org>
Date: 2014-03-20 18:13
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-21 14:56:06 UTC

Permalink

Thanks, Dani, that's more encouraging.

While our service releases have not been true service releases for many
years (see the thread that didn't go anywhere on how the yearly release
cycle doesn't fit our needs), it isn't critical in my mind for this release
to be called Kepler SR3. Would it make folks more comfortable with this if
we called this say Kepler J8, published EPP packages in the regular fashion
and a simrel repo at a separate
http://download.eclipse.org/releases/kepler-j8/ location? This would
accomplish the goal of having Eclipse Java 8 support on a stable base in
easily consumable form before July and would not surprise any existing
Kepler users. Existing Kepler users desiring Java 8 support would need to
add the previously-mentioned repository before pulling for updates. Still
easier than installing patches and any newly downloaded package would
include Java 8 support unless the user downloads from the archives
explicitly.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Daniel
Megert
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 1:02 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

The announcement was correct, but you need to be aware that it's the first
(i.e. 1.0) version of the Eclipse support for Java 8 and as we all know it
will have bugs. The Java 8 support comes with big changes in the compiler
and other areas of JDT, which means new bugs can also affect users that
don't need/want Java 8. This contradicts with the user expectation that each
service release will be more stable and have less bugs than the previous
drop.

Dani

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>,
"'EPP Developer Mailing List'" <epp-***@eclipse.org>
Date: 20.03.2014 18:52
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

_____

Hmm. The wording of the Java 8 support announcement left an impression that
the support is finished and ready to be used. If it's not, perhaps we should
clarify the announcement. On the other hand, if it is ready to be used to
the best of everyone's ability, that's all we can ever hope for anyway.
Worst case scenario, the user can always roll back to SR2.

A single patch repo would be better than hunting for multiple patches, but
still leaves a bad impression about Eclipse in the minds of our users.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Markus
Keller
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 10:31 AM
To: Cross project issues; EPP Developer Mailing List
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I don't think the Kepler repository should get the JDT Java 8 patches.

The Java 8 work was a huge effort, and this code has not yet received the
in-depth testing that people expect from an official service release. While
it adds an eagerly-awaited feature for some users, it also bears quite some
risk for all the others that don't need Java 8 support at this time.

Luna is coming soon, so the waiting time is not that long. Until then, Java
8 support should not be actively pushed into existing installs. But a common
patch for all affected Kepler projects would of course be nice.

Markus Keller (Eclipse JDT UI)

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <
<mailto:***@oracle.com>
***@oracle.com>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <
<mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>, "'EPP Developer Mailing List'" <
<mailto:epp-***@eclipse.org> epp-***@eclipse.org>
Date: 2014-03-20 18:13
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

_____

Miles Parker

2014-03-20 21:55:21 UTC

Permalink

+1 on not putting Java 8 patches in Kepler.

I don’t have any reason to insert myself here except as a consumer, but my strong feeling is that we should take the advice of the team actually building the tool. Service Releases are just that. They are aimed at providing updates to existing features. Users rightly expect to have an increasingly stable and predictable platform from one SR to the next, not a change w/ very large scope and implications across many components. Even if it is everything that anyone has a right to expect as to release quality (as I’m sure it will be :))), it’s bound to be destabilizing.

On Mar 20, 2014, at 10:31 AM, Markus Keller <***@ch.ibm.com> wrote:

> I don't think the Kepler repository should get the JDT Java 8 patches.
>
> The Java 8 work was a huge effort, and this code has not yet received the in-depth testing that people expect from an official service release. While it adds an eagerly-awaited feature for some users, it also bears quite some risk for all the others that don't need Java 8 support at this time.
>
> Luna is coming soon, so the waiting time is not that long. Until then, Java 8 support should not be actively pushed into existing installs. But a common patch for all affected Kepler projects would of course be nice.
>
> Markus Keller (Eclipse JDT UI)
>
>
>
>
> From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com>
> To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>, "'EPP Developer Mailing List'" <epp-***@eclipse.org>
> Date: 2014-03-20 18:13
> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
> Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
>
>
>
> From the perspective of best user experience, we should update the Kepler repository and all the packages. If we limit the changes to just Java 8 support, the test load would not be great.
>
> - Konstantin
>
>
> From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Markus Knauer
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 9:46 AM
> To: Eclipse Cross Project Issues; EPP Developer Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>
> I had this thought, too, and it has been brought up in some discussions at EclipseCon. It should be in our interest to make it as easy as possible for our users to get the integration with Java 8.
>
> *If* we decide for a SR3, what would be the deliverables? An update of the packages only? Or only some packages? An update of the common Simultaneous Release repository? Or something else?
>
> Thanks, Markus
> On 20 Mar 2014 09:29, "Mickael Istria" <***@redhat.com> wrote:
> It tend to agree with it. Java 8 is something big that we (as tool developers in general) should encourage people to adopt. So it's IMO worth making an exception to the release train and try to get a SR3 that supports it Java 8 out-of-the-box.
> --
> Mickael Istria
> Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat
> My blog - My Tweets
>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev_______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>

[mailto:] On Behalf Of Markus Knauer

1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC

Permalink

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Markus
Knauer
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 9:46 AM
To: Eclipse Cross Project Issues; EPP Developer Mailing List
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I had this thought, too, and it has been brought up in some discussions at
EclipseCon. It should be in our interest to make it as easy as possible for
our users to get the integration with Java 8.

*If* we decide for a SR3, what would be the deliverables? An update of the
packages only? Or only some packages? An update of the common Simultaneous
Release repository? Or something else?

Thanks, Markus

On 20 Mar 2014 09:29, "Mickael Istria" <***@redhat.com> wrote:

It tend to agree with it. Java 8 is something big that we (as tool
developers in general) should encourage people to adopt. So it's IMO worth
making an exception to the release train and try to get a SR3 that supports
it Java 8 out-of-the-box.

--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat <http://www.jboss.org/tools>
My blog <http://mickaelistria.wordpress.com> - My Tweets
<http://twitter.com/mickaelistria>

_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

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cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@eclipse.org [

1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC

Permalink

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Markus
Knauer
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 9:46 AM
To: Eclipse Cross Project Issues; EPP Developer Mailing List
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I had this thought, too, and it has been brought up in some discussions at
EclipseCon. It should be in our interest to make it as easy as possible for
our users to get the integration with Java 8.

*If* we decide for a SR3, what would be the deliverables? An update of the
packages only? Or only some packages? An update of the common Simultaneous
Release repository? Or something else?

Thanks, Markus
On 20 Mar 2014 09:29, "Mickael Istria" <***@redhat.com> wrote:
It tend to agree with it. Java 8 is something big that we (as tool
developers in general) should encourage people to adopt. So it's IMO worth
making an exception to the release train and try to get a SR3 that supports
it Java 8 out-of-the-box.
--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat <http://www.jboss.org/tools>
My blog <http://mickaelistria.wordpress.com/> - My Tweets
<http://twitter.com/mickaelistria>

_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev___________
____________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
<https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev>
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

------=_NextPart_000_02D4_01CF442A.661D38A0
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charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"><style></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1>Hmm… The wording of the Java 8 support announcement left an impression that the support is finished and ready to be used. If it’s not, perhaps we should clarify the announcement. On the other hand, if it is ready to be used to the best of everyone’s ability, that’s all we can ever hope for anyway. Worst case scenario, the user can always roll back to SR2.<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>A single patch repo would be better than hunting for multiple patches, but still leaves a bad impression about Eclipse in the minds of our users.<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>- Konstantin<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p><o:p> </o:p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Markus Keller Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 10:31 AM To: Cross project issues; EPP Developer Mailing List Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?<o:p></o:p></div><o:p> </o:p>I don't think the Kepler repository should get the JDT Java 8 patches. The Java 8 work was a huge effort, and this code has not yet received the in-depth testing that people expect from an official service release. While it adds an eagerly-awaited feature for some users, it also bears quite some risk for all the others that don't need Java 8 support at this time. Luna is coming soon, so the waiting time is not that long. Until then, Java 8 support should not be actively pushed into existing installs. But a common patch for all affected Kepler projects would of course be nice. Markus Keller (Eclipse JDT UI) From:        "Konstantin Komissarchik" <<a href="mailto:***@oracle.com">***@oracle.com</a>> To:        "'Cross project issues'" <<a href="mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org">cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org</a>>, "'EPP Developer Mailing List'" <<a href="mailto:epp-***@eclipse.org">epp-***@eclipse.org</a>> Date:        2014-03-20 18:13 Subject:        Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8? Sent by:        <a href="mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org">cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org</a> <o:p></o:p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" noshade style='color:#A0A0A0' align=center></div>

Daniel Megert

2014-03-21 07:52:49 UTC

Permalink

Hi Konstantin

Can you explain why you need two patches? For me the given instructions
work fine and those involve only one patch / repo.

Dani

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
Date: 20.03.2014 15:51
Subject: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

I am wondering if we should do a limited SR release to pickup Java 8
patches. As it stands, Eclipse users interested in Java 8 would have to
hunt for and install at least two patches, which doesn?t paint Eclipse in
a good light.

Thoughts?

- Konstantin_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-21 14:44:28 UTC

Permalink

The issue is that features beyond JDT need to be updated before Java 8 is
supported across various Eclipse features. In particular, WTP needs Java 8
facet version before web application developers can take advantage of Java
8. There may be others.

In case this goes forward, could other projects that need to distribute Java
8 enablement signal so on this thread so that we know who would be
participating?

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Daniel
Megert
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:53 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Hi Konstantin

Can you explain why you need two patches? For me the
<https://wiki.eclipse.org/JDT/Eclipse_Java_8_Support_For_Kepler> given
instructions work fine and those involve only one patch / repo.

Dani

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
Date: 20.03.2014 15:51
Subject: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

_____

I am wondering if we should do a limited SR release to pickup Java 8
patches. As it stands, Eclipse users interested in Java 8 would have to hunt
for and install at least two patches, which doesn't paint Eclipse in a good
light.

Thoughts?

- Konstantin_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
<https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev>
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

Igor Fedorenko

2014-03-21 14:53:10 UTC

Permalink

Are you talking about separate update site with java 8 patches for
kepler or full-blown release?

In any case, m2e does not plan to participate. Anyone who wants to use
m2e with java 8 support on kepler will have to install m2e 1.5
milestone/snapshot build from m2e specific repository.

--
Regards,
Igor

On 2014-03-21, 10:44, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
> The issue is that features beyond JDT need to be updated before Java 8
> is supported across various Eclipse features. In particular, WTP needs
> Java 8 facet version before web application developers can take
> advantage of Java 8. There may be others.
>
> In case this goes forward, *could other projects that need to distribute
> Java 8 enablement signal so on this thread so that we know who would be
> participating?*
>
> - Konstantin
>
> *From:*cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
> [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Daniel Megert
> *Sent:* Friday, March 21, 2014 12:53 AM
> *To:* Cross project issues
> *Subject:* Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>
> Hi Konstantin
>
> Can you explain why you need two patches? For me the given instructions
> <https://wiki.eclipse.org/JDT/Eclipse_Java_8_Support_For_Kepler>work
> fine and those involve only one patch / repo.
>
> Dani
>
>
>
> From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com
> <mailto:***@oracle.com>>
> To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> <mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>>
> Date: 20.03.2014 15:51
> Subject: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
> Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
> <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> I am wondering if we should do a limited SR release to pickup Java 8
> patches. As it stands, Eclipse users interested in Java 8 would have to
> hunt for and install at least two patches, which doesn’t paint Eclipse
> in a good light.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> - Konstantin_______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> <mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-21 14:59:57 UTC

Permalink

> Are you talking about separate update site with java 8 patches for kepler
or full-blown release?

My preference is for a full release. If that doesn't happen, we can discuss
an aggregate repo of patches, which doesn't paint Eclipse in the best light,
but is somewhat better than many separate repos with patches.

> In any case, m2e does not plan to participate. Anyone who wants to use m2e
with java 8 support
> on kepler will have to install m2e 1.5 milestone/snapshot build from m2e
specific repository.

Ok.

- Konstantin

-----Original Message-----
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Igor
Fedorenko
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 7:53 AM
To: cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Are you talking about separate update site with java 8 patches for kepler or
full-blown release?

In any case, m2e does not plan to participate. Anyone who wants to use m2e
with java 8 support on kepler will have to install m2e 1.5
milestone/snapshot build from m2e specific repository.

--
Regards,
Igor

On 2014-03-21, 10:44, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
> The issue is that features beyond JDT need to be updated before Java 8
> is supported across various Eclipse features. In particular, WTP needs
> Java 8 facet version before web application developers can take
> advantage of Java 8. There may be others.
>
> In case this goes forward, *could other projects that need to
> distribute Java 8 enablement signal so on this thread so that we know
> who would be
> participating?*
>
> - Konstantin
>
> *From:*cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
> [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Daniel Megert
> *Sent:* Friday, March 21, 2014 12:53 AM
> *To:* Cross project issues
> *Subject:* Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>
> Hi Konstantin
>
> Can you explain why you need two patches? For me the given
> instructions
> <https://wiki.eclipse.org/JDT/Eclipse_Java_8_Support_For_Kepler>work
> fine and those involve only one patch / repo.
>
> Dani
>
>
>
> From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com
> <mailto:***@oracle.com>>
> To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> <mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>>
> Date: 20.03.2014 15:51
> Subject: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
> Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
> <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>
>
>
>
> I am wondering if we should do a limited SR release to pickup Java 8
> patches. As it stands, Eclipse users interested in Java 8 would have
> to hunt for and install at least two patches, which doesn't paint
> Eclipse in a good light.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> - Konstantin_______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> <mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>

Ed Willink

2014-03-21 15:10:47 UTC

Permalink

Hi

Surely anyone trying to use Java 8 before June is a bleeding edge user,
so what is wrong with M6/M7?

Any pretence that a J8 release, sooner than M7, is of higher quality
than the M7 release is just misleading. Few projects have used it so
there will be numerous serious but often trivial problems to fix. Bug
430875 is the first from me.

Regards

Ed Willink

On 21/03/2014 14:59, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
>> Are you talking about separate update site with java 8 patches for kepler
> or full-blown release?
>
> My preference is for a full release. If that doesn't happen, we can discuss
> an aggregate repo of patches, which doesn't paint Eclipse in the best light,
> but is somewhat better than many separate repos with patches.
>
>> In any case, m2e does not plan to participate. Anyone who wants to use m2e
> with java 8 support
>> on kepler will have to install m2e 1.5 milestone/snapshot build from m2e
> specific repository.
>
> Ok.
>
> - Konstantin
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
> [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Igor
> Fedorenko
> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 7:53 AM
> To: cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>
> Are you talking about separate update site with java 8 patches for kepler or
> full-blown release?
>
> In any case, m2e does not plan to participate. Anyone who wants to use m2e
> with java 8 support on kepler will have to install m2e 1.5
> milestone/snapshot build from m2e specific repository.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Igor
>
> On 2014-03-21, 10:44, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
>> The issue is that features beyond JDT need to be updated before Java 8
>> is supported across various Eclipse features. In particular, WTP needs
>> Java 8 facet version before web application developers can take
>> advantage of Java 8. There may be others.
>>
>> In case this goes forward, *could other projects that need to
>> distribute Java 8 enablement signal so on this thread so that we know
>> who would be
>> participating?*
>>
>> - Konstantin
>>
>> *From:*cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
>> [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] *On Behalf Of
>> *Daniel Megert
>> *Sent:* Friday, March 21, 2014 12:53 AM
>> *To:* Cross project issues
>> *Subject:* Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>>
>> Hi Konstantin
>>
>> Can you explain why you need two patches? For me the given
>> instructions
>> <https://wiki.eclipse.org/JDT/Eclipse_Java_8_Support_For_Kepler>work
>> fine and those involve only one patch / repo.
>>
>> Dani
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com
>> <mailto:***@oracle.com>>
>> To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
>> <mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>>
>> Date: 20.03.2014 15:51
>> Subject: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>> Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
>> <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I am wondering if we should do a limited SR release to pickup Java 8
>> patches. As it stands, Eclipse users interested in Java 8 would have
>> to hunt for and install at least two patches, which doesn't paint
>> Eclipse in a good light.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> - Konstantin_______________________________________________
>> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
>> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
>> <mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
>> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4336 / Virus Database: 3722/7225 - Release Date: 03/21/14
>
>

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-21 15:25:25 UTC

Permalink

There have been numerous calls for Java 8 support on the stable Kepler base
and patches have been prepared accordingly. This is a discussion of a better
way to package and distribute these existing Kepler patches. Many users who
do not typically consume Eclipse milestones are not happy with using a Luna
milestone for Java 8 support as numerous other areas are in flux and
unstable.

Doug Schaefer

2014-03-23 19:32:33 UTC

Permalink

I would think that if they are advanced enough to jump on Java 8 the minute it releases, they can figure out how to install the Java 8 support into Kepler.

Doug.

________________________________________
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 11:25 AM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

There have been numerous calls for Java 8 support on the stable Kepler base
and patches have been prepared accordingly. This is a discussion of a better
way to package and distribute these existing Kepler patches. Many users who
do not typically consume Eclipse milestones are not happy with using a Luna
milestone for Java 8 support as numerous other areas are in flux and
unstable.

Jan Köhnlein

2014-03-23 19:46:52 UTC

Permalink

How about first placing the download location(s) a bit more prominently on the website?
The “official” download/install instructions seem to be in the wiki (wiki.eclipse.org/JDT/Eclipse_Java_8_Support_For_Kepler). That doesn’t look very official and rather looks like it is ready for bleeding edge hackers.
On the landing page (eclipse.org), I just see a link to a blog entry on Java8 support somewhere in the middle. Not very official either.
The download page (eclipse.org/downloads) doesn’t contain *any* hint.

Am 23.03.2014 um 20:32 schrieb Doug Schaefer <***@qnx.com>:

> I would think that if they are advanced enough to jump on Java 8 the minute it releases, they can figure out how to install the Java 8 support into Kepler.
>
> Doug.
>
> ________________________________________
> From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 11:25 AM
> To: 'Cross project issues'
> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>
> There have been numerous calls for Java 8 support on the stable Kepler base
> and patches have been prepared accordingly. This is a discussion of a better
> way to package and distribute these existing Kepler patches. Many users who
> do not typically consume Eclipse milestones are not happy with using a Luna
> milestone for Java 8 support as numerous other areas are in flux and
> unstable. From this perspective, the proposed J8 release would be
> significantly more stable in general than M7.
>
> - Konstantin
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
> [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Ed
> Willink
> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:11 AM
> To: Cross project issues
> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>
> Hi
>
> Surely anyone trying to use Java 8 before June is a bleeding edge user, so
> what is wrong with M6/M7?
>
> Any pretence that a J8 release, sooner than M7, is of higher quality than
> the M7 release is just misleading. Few projects have used it so there will
> be numerous serious but often trivial problems to fix. Bug
> 430875 is the first from me.
>
> Regards
>
> Ed Willink
>
> On 21/03/2014 14:59, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
>>> Are you talking about separate update site with java 8 patches for
>>> kepler
>> or full-blown release?
>>
>> My preference is for a full release. If that doesn't happen, we can
>> discuss an aggregate repo of patches, which doesn't paint Eclipse in
>> the best light, but is somewhat better than many separate repos with
> patches.
>>
>>> In any case, m2e does not plan to participate. Anyone who wants to
>>> use m2e
>> with java 8 support
>>> on kepler will have to install m2e 1.5 milestone/snapshot build from
>>> m2e
>> specific repository.
>>
>> Ok.
>>
>> - Konstantin
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
>> [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of
>> Igor Fedorenko
>> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 7:53 AM
>> To: cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
>> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>>
>> Are you talking about separate update site with java 8 patches for
>> kepler or full-blown release?
>>
>> In any case, m2e does not plan to participate. Anyone who wants to use
>> m2e with java 8 support on kepler will have to install m2e 1.5
>> milestone/snapshot build from m2e specific repository.
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Igor
>>
>> On 2014-03-21, 10:44, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
>>> The issue is that features beyond JDT need to be updated before Java
>>> 8 is supported across various Eclipse features. In particular, WTP
>>> needs Java 8 facet version before web application developers can take
>>> advantage of Java 8. There may be others.
>>>
>>> In case this goes forward, *could other projects that need to
>>> distribute Java 8 enablement signal so on this thread so that we know
>>> who would be
>>> participating?*
>>>
>>> - Konstantin
>>>
>>> *From:*cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
>>> [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] *On Behalf Of
>>> *Daniel Megert
>>> *Sent:* Friday, March 21, 2014 12:53 AM
>>> *To:* Cross project issues
>>> *Subject:* Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>>>
>>> Hi Konstantin
>>>
>>> Can you explain why you need two patches? For me the given
>>> instructions
>>> <https://wiki.eclipse.org/JDT/Eclipse_Java_8_Support_For_Kepler>work
>>> fine and those involve only one patch / repo.
>>>
>>> Dani
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com
>>> <mailto:***@oracle.com>>
>>> To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
>>> <mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>>
>>> Date: 20.03.2014 15:51
>>> Subject: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>>> Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
>>> <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am wondering if we should do a limited SR release to pickup Java 8
>>> patches. As it stands, Eclipse users interested in Java 8 would have
>>> to hunt for and install at least two patches, which doesn't paint
>>> Eclipse in a good light.
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> - Konstantin_______________________________________________
>>> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
>>> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
>>> <mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
>>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
>>> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
>>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
>> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
>> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2014.0.4336 / Virus Database: 3722/7225 - Release Date:
>> 03/21/14
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

--
Dr. Jan Köhnlein
Senior Software Architekt

Mobile: +49 (0) 151 / 17396687
Telefon: +49 (0) 431 / 99026870
Fax: +49 (0) 431 / 99026872

http://www.itemis.de
***@itemis.de
https://www.xing.com/profile/Jan_Koehnlein

itemis AG
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Rechtlicher Hinweis:

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Aufsichtsrat: Dr. Burkhard Igel (Vors.), Stephan Grollmann, Michael Neuhaus

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-24 16:05:45 UTC

Permalink

I don't see evidence to back such a conjecture. One cannot assume that Java
sophistication implies sophistication or desire to build and install Eclipse
patches. One cannot assume that immediate interest in Java 8 even implies
any level of sophistication (see students). In fact, I would expect that a
large number of developers who are not tied by JVM backwards compatibility
requirements will be moving to Java 8 in the next month or two in order to
take advantage of the new language constructs.

These developers will be faced with... install JDT patch... build WTP patch
from source... install m2e luna i-build and hope it works with kepler...
etc... or maybe just use NetBeans or IntelliJ, both of whom have shipped
their Java 8 support already. If we are serious about maintaining a
competitive position for Eclipse, we need to do better than telling the
users to assemble Java 8 support on their own.

- Konstantin

-----Original Message-----
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 12:33 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I would think that if they are advanced enough to jump on Java 8 the minute
it releases, they can figure out how to install the Java 8 support into
Kepler.

Doug.

________________________________________
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 11:25 AM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

There have been numerous calls for Java 8 support on the stable Kepler base
and patches have been prepared accordingly. This is a discussion of a better
way to package and distribute these existing Kepler patches. Many users who
do not typically consume Eclipse milestones are not happy with using a Luna
milestone for Java 8 support as numerous other areas are in flux and
unstable.

Doug Schaefer

2014-03-24 16:16:52 UTC

Permalink

I'm sorry, but I only know about the JDT patch, and a pretty decent p2 site has been created to make it really easy to install. No "building" required. I'm happily using it to work on JavaFX stuff.

What's in the WTP patch? And I'm not even sure Tycho has support for Java 8 yet.

I appreciate your concern, but I'd also like to hear from a few others before we (the planning council and EPP maintainers) start the significant effort to respin Kepler, as opposed to making Luna, available in only 3 months, our first class Java 8 tool.

Doug.

________________________________________
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 12:05 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I don't see evidence to back such a conjecture. One cannot assume that Java
sophistication implies sophistication or desire to build and install Eclipse
patches. One cannot assume that immediate interest in Java 8 even implies
any level of sophistication (see students). In fact, I would expect that a
large number of developers who are not tied by JVM backwards compatibility
requirements will be moving to Java 8 in the next month or two in order to
take advantage of the new language constructs.

These developers will be faced with... install JDT patch... build WTP patch
from source... install m2e luna i-build and hope it works with kepler...
etc... or maybe just use NetBeans or IntelliJ, both of whom have shipped
their Java 8 support already. If we are serious about maintaining a
competitive position for Eclipse, we need to do better than telling the
users to assemble Java 8 support on their own.

- Konstantin

-----Original Message-----
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 12:33 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I would think that if they are advanced enough to jump on Java 8 the minute
it releases, they can figure out how to install the Java 8 support into
Kepler.

Doug.

________________________________________
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 11:25 AM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

There have been numerous calls for Java 8 support on the stable Kepler base
and patches have been prepared accordingly. This is a discussion of a better
way to package and distribute these existing Kepler patches. Many users who
do not typically consume Eclipse milestones are not happy with using a Luna
milestone for Java 8 support as numerous other areas are in flux and
unstable.

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-24 16:30:28 UTC

Permalink

WTP patch - Java facet needs to be amended to support Java 8 before any web
developer can take advantage of Java 8 support in JDT. The WTP patch is only
available in source form.

- Konstantin

-----Original Message-----
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:17 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I'm sorry, but I only know about the JDT patch, and a pretty decent p2 site
has been created to make it really easy to install. No "building" required.
I'm happily using it to work on JavaFX stuff.

What's in the WTP patch? And I'm not even sure Tycho has support for Java 8
yet.

I appreciate your concern, but I'd also like to hear from a few others
before we (the planning council and EPP maintainers) start the significant
effort to respin Kepler, as opposed to making Luna, available in only 3
months, our first class Java 8 tool.

Doug.

________________________________________
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 12:05 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I don't see evidence to back such a conjecture. One cannot assume that Java
sophistication implies sophistication or desire to build and install Eclipse
patches. One cannot assume that immediate interest in Java 8 even implies
any level of sophistication (see students). In fact, I would expect that a
large number of developers who are not tied by JVM backwards compatibility
requirements will be moving to Java 8 in the next month or two in order to
take advantage of the new language constructs.

These developers will be faced with... install JDT patch... build WTP patch
from source... install m2e luna i-build and hope it works with kepler...
etc... or maybe just use NetBeans or IntelliJ, both of whom have shipped
their Java 8 support already. If we are serious about maintaining a
competitive position for Eclipse, we need to do better than telling the
users to assemble Java 8 support on their own.

- Konstantin

-----Original Message-----
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 12:33 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I would think that if they are advanced enough to jump on Java 8 the minute
it releases, they can figure out how to install the Java 8 support into
Kepler.

Doug.

________________________________________
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 11:25 AM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

There have been numerous calls for Java 8 support on the stable Kepler base
and patches have been prepared accordingly. This is a discussion of a better
way to package and distribute these existing Kepler patches. Many users who
do not typically consume Eclipse milestones are not happy with using a Luna
milestone for Java 8 support as numerous other areas are in flux and
unstable.

Daniel Megert

2014-03-24 16:36:56 UTC

Permalink

We should definitely offer a repository where all Java 8 related patches
(along with updates to it) are available. I'm -1 to offer a new/special
release.

Dani

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
Date: 24.03.2014 17:31
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

WTP patch - Java facet needs to be amended to support Java 8 before any
web
developer can take advantage of Java 8 support in JDT. The WTP patch is
only
available in source form.

- Konstantin

-----Original Message-----
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:17 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I'm sorry, but I only know about the JDT patch, and a pretty decent p2
site
has been created to make it really easy to install. No "building"
required.
I'm happily using it to work on JavaFX stuff.

What's in the WTP patch? And I'm not even sure Tycho has support for Java
8
yet.

I appreciate your concern, but I'd also like to hear from a few others
before we (the planning council and EPP maintainers) start the significant
effort to respin Kepler, as opposed to making Luna, available in only 3
months, our first class Java 8 tool.

Doug.

________________________________________
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 12:05 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I don't see evidence to back such a conjecture. One cannot assume that
Java
sophistication implies sophistication or desire to build and install
Eclipse
patches. One cannot assume that immediate interest in Java 8 even implies
any level of sophistication (see students). In fact, I would expect that a
large number of developers who are not tied by JVM backwards compatibility
requirements will be moving to Java 8 in the next month or two in order to
take advantage of the new language constructs.

These developers will be faced with... install JDT patch... build WTP
patch
from source... install m2e luna i-build and hope it works with kepler...
etc... or maybe just use NetBeans or IntelliJ, both of whom have shipped
their Java 8 support already. If we are serious about maintaining a
competitive position for Eclipse, we need to do better than telling the
users to assemble Java 8 support on their own.

- Konstantin

-----Original Message-----
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 12:33 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I would think that if they are advanced enough to jump on Java 8 the
minute
it releases, they can figure out how to install the Java 8 support into
Kepler.

Doug.

________________________________________
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 11:25 AM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

There have been numerous calls for Java 8 support on the stable Kepler
base
and patches have been prepared accordingly. This is a discussion of a
better
way to package and distribute these existing Kepler patches. Many users
who
do not typically consume Eclipse milestones are not happy with using a
Luna
milestone for Java 8 support as numerous other areas are in flux and

cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@eclipse.org [

1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC

Permalink

- Konstantin

From: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Markus
Knauer
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 9:46 AM
To: Eclipse Cross Project Issues; EPP Developer Mailing List
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I had this thought, too, and it has been brought up in some discussions at
EclipseCon. It should be in our interest to make it as easy as possible for
our users to get the integration with Java 8.

*If* we decide for a SR3, what would be the deliverables? An update of the
packages only? Or only some packages? An update of the common Simultaneous
Release repository? Or something else?

Thanks, Markus
On 20 Mar 2014 09:29, "Mickael Istria" <***@redhat.com> wrote:
It tend to agree with it. Java 8 is something big that we (as tool
developers in general) should encourage people to adopt. So it's IMO worth
making an exception to the release train and try to get a SR3 that supports
it Java 8 out-of-the-box.
--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat <http://www.jboss.org/tools>
My blog <http://mickaelistria.wordpress.com/> - My Tweets
<http://twitter.com/mickaelistria>

_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev___________
____________________________________
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<mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
<https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev>
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev___________
____________________________________
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cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
<https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev>
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

------=_NextPart_000_0321_01CF44DB.04F78290
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charset="us-ascii"
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<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"><style></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1>Thanks, Dani, that’s more encouraging. <o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>While our service releases have not been true service releases for many years (see the thread that didn’t go anywhere on how the yearly release cycle doesn’t fit our needs), it isn’t critical in my mind for this release to be called Kepler SR3. Would it make folks more comfortable with this if we called this say Kepler J8, published EPP packages in the regular fashion and a simrel repo at a separate <a href="http://download.eclipse.org/releases/kepler-j8/">http://download.eclipse.org/releases/kepler-j8/</a> location? This would accomplish the goal of having Eclipse Java 8 support on a stable base in easily consumable form before July and would not surprise any existing Kepler users. Existing Kepler users desiring Java 8 support would need to add the previously-mentioned repository before pulling for updates. Still easier than installing patches and any newly downloaded package would include Java 8 support unless the user downloads from the archives explicitly.<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>- Konstantin<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p><o:p> </o:p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Megert Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 1:02 AM To: Cross project issues Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?<o:p></o:p></div><o:p> </o:p>The announcement was correct, but you need to be aware that it's the first (i.e. 1.0) version of the Eclipse support for Java 8 and as we all know it will have bugs. The Java 8 support comes with big changes in the compiler and other areas of JDT, which means new bugs can also affect users that don't need/want Java 8. This contradicts with the user expectation that each service release will be more stable and have less bugs than the previous drop. Dani From:        "Konstantin Komissarchik" <<a href="mailto:***@oracle.com">***@oracle.com</a>> To:        "'Cross project issues'" <<a href="mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org">cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org</a>>, "'EPP Developer Mailing List'" <<a href="mailto:epp-***@eclipse.org">epp-***@eclipse.org</a>> Date:        20.03.2014 18:52 Subject:        Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8? Sent by:        <a href="mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org">cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org</a> <o:p></o:p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" noshade style='color:#A0A0A0' align=center></div> Hmm… The wording of the Java 8 support announcement left an impression that the support is finished and ready to be used. If it’s not, perhaps we should clarify the announcement. On the other hand, if it is ready to be used to the best of everyone’s ability, that’s all we can ever hope for anyway. Worst case scenario, the user can always roll back to SR2.   A single patch repo would be better than hunting for multiple patches, but still leaves a bad impression about Eclipse in the minds of our users.   - Konstantin     From: <a href="mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org">cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org</a> [<a href="mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org">mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org</a>] On Behalf Of Markus Keller Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 10:31 AM To: Cross project issues; EPP Developer Mailing List Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?   I don't think the Kepler repository should get the JDT Java 8 patches. The Java 8 work was a huge effort, and this code has not yet received the in-depth testing that people expect from an official service release. While it adds an eagerly-awaited feature for some users, it also bears quite some risk for all the others that don't need Java 8 support at this time. Luna is coming soon, so the waiting time is not that long. Until then, Java 8 support should not be actively pushed into existing installs. But a common patch for all affected Kepler projects would of course be nice. Markus Keller (Eclipse JDT UI) From:        "Konstantin Komissarchik" <<a href="mailto:***@oracle.com">***@oracle.com</a>> To:        "'Cross project issues'" <<a href="mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org">cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org</a>>, "'EPP Developer Mailing List'" <<a href="mailto:epp-***@eclipse.org">epp-***@eclipse.org</a>> Date:        2014-03-20 18:13 Subject:        Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8? Sent by:        <a href="mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org">cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org</a> <o:p></o:p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" noshade style='color:#A0A0A0' align=center></div>

[mailto:] On Behalf Of Ed Willink

1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC

Permalink

[mailto:] On Behalf Of Ed Willink

1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC

Permalink

[mailto:] On Behalf Of Ed Willink

1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC

Permalink

[mailto:] On Behalf Of Ed Willink

1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC

Permalink

- Konstantin

-----Original Message-----
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Ed
Willink
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:11 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Hi

Surely anyone trying to use Java 8 before June is a bleeding edge user, so
what is wrong with M6/M7?

Any pretence that a J8 release, sooner than M7, is of higher quality than
the M7 release is just misleading. Few projects have used it so there will
be numerous serious but often trivial problems to fix. Bug
430875 is the first from me.

Regards

Ed Willink

On 21/03/2014 14:59, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
>> Are you talking about separate update site with java 8 patches for
>> kepler
> or full-blown release?
>
> My preference is for a full release. If that doesn't happen, we can
> discuss an aggregate repo of patches, which doesn't paint Eclipse in
> the best light, but is somewhat better than many separate repos with
patches.
>
>> In any case, m2e does not plan to participate. Anyone who wants to
>> use m2e
> with java 8 support
>> on kepler will have to install m2e 1.5 milestone/snapshot build from
>> m2e
> specific repository.
>
> Ok.
>
> - Konstantin
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
> [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of
> Igor Fedorenko
> Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 7:53 AM
> To: cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>
> Are you talking about separate update site with java 8 patches for
> kepler or full-blown release?
>
> In any case, m2e does not plan to participate. Anyone who wants to use
> m2e with java 8 support on kepler will have to install m2e 1.5
> milestone/snapshot build from m2e specific repository.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Igor
>
> On 2014-03-21, 10:44, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
>> The issue is that features beyond JDT need to be updated before Java
>> 8 is supported across various Eclipse features. In particular, WTP
>> needs Java 8 facet version before web application developers can take
>> advantage of Java 8. There may be others.
>>
>> In case this goes forward, *could other projects that need to
>> distribute Java 8 enablement signal so on this thread so that we know
>> who would be
>> participating?*
>>
>> - Konstantin
>>
>> *From:*cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
>> [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] *On Behalf Of
>> *Daniel Megert
>> *Sent:* Friday, March 21, 2014 12:53 AM
>> *To:* Cross project issues
>> *Subject:* Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>>
>> Hi Konstantin
>>
>> Can you explain why you need two patches? For me the given
>> instructions
>> <https://wiki.eclipse.org/JDT/Eclipse_Java_8_Support_For_Kepler>work
>> fine and those involve only one patch / repo.
>>
>> Dani
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com
>> <mailto:***@oracle.com>>
>> To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
>> <mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>>
>> Date: 20.03.2014 15:51
>> Subject: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>> Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
>> <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I am wondering if we should do a limited SR release to pickup Java 8
>> patches. As it stands, Eclipse users interested in Java 8 would have
>> to hunt for and install at least two patches, which doesn't paint
>> Eclipse in a good light.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> - Konstantin_______________________________________________
>> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
>> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
>> <mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
>> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
> _______________________________________________
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> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>
>
> -----
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--=_alternative 005B4429C1257CA5_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

We should definitely offer a repository
where all Java 8 related patches (along with updates to it) are available.
I'm -1 to offer a new/special release.
 
 Dani
 
 
 
 From:      
 "Konstantin Komissarchik"
<***@oracle.com>
 To:      
 "'Cross project
issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
 Date:      
 24.03.2014 17:31
 Subject:    
   Re: [cross-project-issues-dev]
Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
 Sent by:    
   cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
 
<hr noshade>
 
 
 <tt>WTP patch - Java facet needs to be amended to support
Java 8 before any web 
developer can take advantage of Java 8 support in JDT. The WTP patch is
only 
available in source form. 
 
- Konstantin 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org 
[</tt><a href="mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org"><tt>mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org</tt></a><tt>]
On Behalf Of Doug 
Schaefer 
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:17 AM 
To: Cross project issues 
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8? 
 
I'm sorry, but I only know about the JDT patch, and a pretty decent p2
site 
has been created to make it really easy to install. No "building"
required. 
I'm happily using it to work on JavaFX stuff. 
 
What's in the WTP patch? And I'm not even sure Tycho has support for Java
8 
yet. 
 
I appreciate your concern, but I'd also like to hear from a few others 
before we (the planning council and EPP maintainers) start the significant 
effort to respin Kepler, as opposed to making Luna, available in only 3 
months, our first class Java 8 tool. 
 
Doug. 
 
________________________________________ 
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org 
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin 
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 12:05 PM 
To: 'Cross project issues' 
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8? 
 
I don't see evidence to back such a conjecture. One cannot assume that
Java 
sophistication implies sophistication or desire to build and install Eclipse 
patches. One cannot assume that immediate interest in Java 8 even implies 
any level of sophistication (see students). In fact, I would expect that
a 
large number of developers who are not tied by JVM backwards compatibility 
requirements will be moving to Java 8 in the next month or two in order
to 
take advantage of the new language constructs. 
 
These developers will be faced with... install JDT patch... build WTP patch 
from source... install m2e luna i-build and hope it works with kepler... 
etc... or maybe just use NetBeans or IntelliJ, both of whom have shipped 
their Java 8 support already. If we are serious about maintaining a 
competitive position for Eclipse, we need to do better than telling the 
users to assemble Java 8 support on their own. 
 
- Konstantin 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org 
[</tt><a href="mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org"><tt>mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org</tt></a><tt>]
On Behalf Of Doug 
Schaefer 
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 12:33 PM 
To: Cross project issues 
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8? 
 
I would think that if they are advanced enough to jump on Java 8 the minute 
it releases, they can figure out how to install the Java 8 support into 
Kepler. 
 
Doug. 
 
________________________________________ 
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org 
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin 
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 11:25 AM 
To: 'Cross project issues' 
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8? 
 
There have been numerous calls for Java 8 support on the stable Kepler
base 
and patches have been prepared accordingly. This is a discussion of a better 
way to package and distribute these existing Kepler patches. Many users
who 
do not typically consume Eclipse milestones are not happy with using a
Luna 
milestone for Java 8 support as numerous other areas are in flux and 
unstable.

Mickael Istria

2014-03-27 07:32:26 UTC

Permalink

On 03/20/2014 03:50 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
>
> I am wondering if we should do a limited SR release to pickup Java 8
> patches. As it stands, Eclipse users interested in Java 8 would have
> to hunt for and install at least two patches, which doesn't paint
> Eclipse in a good light.
>
This bug https://issues.jboss.org/browse/JBIDE-16902 makes that Java 8
support introduces something that will be felt as a major regression for
most users. So I'm -1 for making Java 8 support part of a generally
available SR3 until it contains this bug.
--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat <http://www.jboss.org/tools>
My blog <http://mickaelistria.wordpress.com> - My Tweets
<http://twitter.com/mickaelistria>

Mickael Istria

2014-03-27 07:38:28 UTC

Permalink

On 03/27/2014 08:32 AM, Mickael Istria wrote:
> On 03/20/2014 03:50 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
>>
>> I am wondering if we should do a limited SR release to pickup Java 8
>> patches. As it stands, Eclipse users interested in Java 8 would have
>> to hunt for and install at least two patches, which doesn't paint
>> Eclipse in a good light.
>>
> This bug https://issues.jboss.org/browse/JBIDE-16902 makes that Java 8
> support introduces something that will be felt as a major regression
> for most users. So I'm -1 for making Java 8 support part of a
> generally available SR3 until it contains this bug.
Sorry, bad link, the bug is
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=390889
--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat <http://www.jboss.org/tools>
My blog <http://mickaelistria.wordpress.com> - My Tweets
<http://twitter.com/mickaelistria>

Tom Schindl

2014-03-27 08:37:17 UTC

Permalink

Why do you see this as a major regression?

There's no problem beside that using < java7 as compile target when you
use JRE8 in the project.

Tom

On 27.03.14 08:38, Mickael Istria wrote:
> On 03/27/2014 08:32 AM, Mickael Istria wrote:
>> On 03/20/2014 03:50 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
>>>
>>> I am wondering if we should do a limited SR release to pickup Java 8
>>> patches. As it stands, Eclipse users interested in Java 8 would have
>>> to hunt for and install at least two patches, which doesn’t paint
>>> Eclipse in a good light.
>>>
>> This bug https://issues.jboss.org/browse/JBIDE-16902 makes that Java 8
>> support introduces something that will be felt as a major regression
>> for most users. So I'm -1 for making Java 8 support part of a
>> generally available SR3 until it contains this bug.
> Sorry, bad link, the bug is
> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=390889
> --
> Mickael Istria
> Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat <http://www.jboss.org/tools>
> My blog <http://mickaelistria.wordpress.com> - My Tweets
> <http://twitter.com/mickaelistria>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>

Mickael Istria

2014-03-27 08:59:31 UTC

Permalink

On 03/27/2014 09:37 AM, Tom Schindl wrote:
> Why do you see this as a major regression?
This comment contains an explicit example of an annoying behaviour:
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=390889#c15
--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat <http://www.jboss.org/tools>
My blog <http://mickaelistria.wordpress.com> - My Tweets
<http://twitter.com/mickaelistria>

Sven Efftinge

2014-03-27 10:18:41 UTC

Permalink

I agree, that this is unfortunate and should be fixed.
But doesnt that only affect users, who have installed Java 8 plus the Eclipse-support *and*
are using an environment for Java 8 but have the compiler set to something below 8?

Is that something many people do? If so they will likely run into many other problems, as they
now program against Java 8 JDK which has a lot of cool new classes and members that wont be available as soon as they
run the code on a Java7 VM or compile it against a Java 7 JDK.

So IMHO this is not a stopper for having a more prominent download for the Java 8 support.

On 27 Mar 2014, at 09:59, Mickael Istria <***@redhat.com> wrote:

> On 03/27/2014 09:37 AM, Tom Schindl wrote:
>> Why do you see this as a major regression?
> This comment contains an explicit example of an annoying behaviour: https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=390889#c15
> --
> Mickael Istria
> Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat
> My blog - My Tweets
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

Doug Schaefer

2014-03-27 14:02:30 UTC

Permalink

Well, it directly affects Maven builds. You can't use Java 8 by itself to build the platform aggregator, for example. You need to set up a toolchains.xml file to hook up Java 7 as well. And that's probably the solution here too. If you have plug-ins with BREE's of Java 7 or earlier, and plug-ins you've upgraded to Java 8, you need both JREs registered in your environment. I'm not sure there's actually any way around it. But at least the flexibility we have gives us a workaround.

Doug.

________________________________
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Sven Efftinge [***@itemis.de]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 6:18 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I agree, that this is unfortunate and should be fixed.
But doesnt that only affect users, who have installed Java 8 plus the Eclipse-support *and*
are using an environment for Java 8 but have the compiler set to something below 8?

Is that something many people do? If so they will likely run into many other problems, as they
now program against Java 8 JDK which has a lot of cool new classes and members that wont be available as soon as they
run the code on a Java7 VM or compile it against a Java 7 JDK.

So IMHO this is not a stopper for having a more prominent download for the Java 8 support.

On 27 Mar 2014, at 09:59, Mickael Istria <***@redhat.com<mailto:***@redhat.com>> wrote:

On 03/27/2014 09:37 AM, Tom Schindl wrote:

Why do you see this as a major regression?

This comment contains an explicit example of an annoying behaviour: https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=390889#c15
--
Mickael Istria
Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat<http://www.jboss.org/tools>
My blog<http://mickaelistria.wordpress.com/> - My Tweets<http://twitter.com/mickaelistria>

Mike Milinkovich

2014-03-27 16:04:17 UTC

Permalink

On 27/03/2014 6:18 AM, Sven Efftinge wrote:
> So IMHO this is not a stopper for having a more prominent download for
> the Java 8 support.

Just so everyone knows, the Eclipse Foundation is considering taking the
following steps to raise awareness of our Java 8 support. This is coming
partially as a result from feedback we got from this week's Javaland
conference in Germany where a number of developers made it very clear
that they had no idea that Eclipse supported Java 8 at all. Apparently
only announcing these things on our internal lists isn't sufficient :)

Please note that all of this will be done with exactly what we have
today. None of this will require any actions on behalf of the Eclipse,
EPP or other teams.

1. We are going to create a Community Bulletin announcing Java 8
support that will appear on our home page.
2. We are going to create a web page which clearly documents how to get
an install our existing Java 8 support for both Kepler SR2 and the
Luna builds.
3. We are going to put a banner on the downloads page (e.g. "Looking
for Java 8 support?") which links to (2) above.
4. We are going to create an (or update the existing) Eclipse
Marketplace entry for the Kepler SR2 Java 8 feature
1. This will allow a drag-and-drop install into a Kepler SR2 workbench.
2. This will allow discovery and installation via the Marketplace
Client (MPC).
5. We are going to make this Marketplace entry a "featured product"
which will make it visible on the Marketplace website and in the MPC.
6. We are going to make the Java 8 support a "featured download" to
give it some prominence on the download page.

We welcome any comments or feedback.

--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223

Mike Milinkovich

2014-03-27 16:09:27 UTC

Permalink

On 27/03/2014 12:04 PM, Mike Milinkovich wrote:
> 6. We are going to make the Java 8 support a "featured download" to
> give it some prominence on the download page.

I just realized that this one might not make sense....We'll see what we
can do about that one.

--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-27 16:36:37 UTC

Permalink

If we make a push like this, it is clear statement that we believe that Java
8 support is ready for prime time, so why not go a step farther and put out
a full release, so this is even easier for users to consume? Kepler SR2
would still be there in the archives if a user runs into a serious
regression caused by Java 8 functionality.

Publicizing the current patch site better is good, of course, but that still
doesn't solve the problem of handling the required patches from other
projects. We can create an aggregate site of these patches, as previously
discussed, but users would have to use the update site manually and pick the
patches to apply that make sense for their installation. For instance, if
they don't have WTP, it wouldn't be good to try to install the WTP patch.
For the same reason, a single Marketplace listing wouldn't work.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Mike
Milinkovich
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:04 AM
To: cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

On 27/03/2014 6:18 AM, Sven Efftinge wrote:

So IMHO this is not a stopper for having a more prominent download for the
Java 8 support.

Just so everyone knows, the Eclipse Foundation is considering taking the
following steps to raise awareness of our Java 8 support. This is coming
partially as a result from feedback we got from this week's Javaland
conference in Germany where a number of developers made it very clear that
they had no idea that Eclipse supported Java 8 at all. Apparently only
announcing these things on our internal lists isn't sufficient :)

Please note that all of this will be done with exactly what we have today.
None of this will require any actions on behalf of the Eclipse, EPP or other
teams.

1. We are going to create a Community Bulletin announcing Java 8
support that will appear on our home page.
2. We are going to create a web page which clearly documents how to get
an install our existing Java 8 support for both Kepler SR2 and the Luna
builds.
3. We are going to put a banner on the downloads page (e.g. "Looking
for Java 8 support?") which links to (2) above.
4. We are going to create an (or update the existing) Eclipse
Marketplace entry for the Kepler SR2 Java 8 feature

a. This will allow a drag-and-drop install into a Kepler SR2 workbench.
b. This will allow discovery and installation via the Marketplace
Client (MPC).

5. We are going to make this Marketplace entry a "featured product"
which will make it visible on the Marketplace website and in the MPC.
6. We are going to make the Java 8 support a "featured download" to
give it some prominence on the download page.

We welcome any comments or feedback.

--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223

Mike Milinkovich

2014-03-27 16:55:02 UTC

Permalink

On 27/03/2014 12:36 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
> so why not go a step farther and put out a full release, so this is
> even easier for users to consume?

Uhhhh.....because that would be a lot of additional, unplanned work?

--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-27 17:28:34 UTC

Permalink

Well, it is more work, but it shouldn't be a lot of work since the bulk of
it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse community and
Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

So what it would take.

1. Branch the aggregation files from Kepler maintenance line.

2. Allow a few projects with Java 8 changes to contribute a new build.

3. Kick off the aggregation build.

4. Kick off the packages build.

5. Wait for package maintainers to give a go ahead.

If some packages don't wish to participate, that's fine. We would be in a
much better position than we are today if we even just had the basic Java
package and the Java EE package updated along with an updated aggregation
site from which others could pull updates, if necessary.

- Konstantin

From: Mike Milinkovich [mailto:***@eclipse.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 9:55 AM
To: Konstantin Komissarchik; 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

On 27/03/2014 12:36 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:

so why not go a step farther and put out a full release, so this is even
easier for users to consume?

Uhhhh.....because that would be a lot of additional, unplanned work?

--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223

Mike Milinkovich

2014-03-27 17:43:58 UTC

Permalink

On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
> Well, it is more work, but it shouldn't be a lot of work since the
> bulk of it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse
> community and Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is
desirable. That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps
outlined in my email from earlier today.

In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've
started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF
is proposing to do.

--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223

Doug Schaefer

2014-03-27 19:35:21 UTC

Permalink

Yes, you have to remember, the Foundation doesn't put together releases, the projects do. And Mike is correct, there isn't consensus from the projects that a Kepler SR3 is warranted versus putting resources on Luna. The feature patch install is easy and just needs to be made more visible, as Mike is proposing to do.

Doug.

________________________________
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Mike Milinkovich [***@eclipse.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:43 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
Well, it is more work, but it shouldnt be a lot of work since the bulk of it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse community and Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is desirable. That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps outlined in my email from earlier today.

In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF is proposing to do.

--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org<mailto:***@eclipse.org>
+1.613.220.3223

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-27 21:03:54 UTC

Permalink

You seem to be saying that I don't know how these releases are put together
or who does the work. That's low.

You are quite right that there is no consensus. It is quite sad to see this.
There is lots of talk about needing to make ensure that Eclipse remains
competitive, but when time comes to do something concretely towards that,
there is little interest. Let there be no mistake, it is a bad completive
position to have Eclipse ship official Java 8 support three months behind
the competition. For developers immersed in Eclipse internals daily, it may
not seem like a big deal to ask users to seek out and install various
patches or to use a Luna pre-release build or to just wait, but average
users don't see it that way.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:35 PM
To: ***@eclipse.org; Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Yes, you have to remember, the Foundation doesn't put together releases, the
projects do. And Mike is correct, there isn't consensus from the projects
that a Kepler SR3 is warranted versus putting resources on Luna. The feature
patch install is easy and just needs to be made more visible, as Mike is
proposing to do.

Doug.

_____

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Mike Milinkovich
[***@eclipse.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:43 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:

Well, it is more work, but it shouldn't be a lot of work since the bulk of
it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse community and
Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is desirable.
That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps outlined in my
email from earlier today.

In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've
started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF is
proposing to do.

--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223

Doug Schaefer

2014-03-27 23:26:20 UTC

Permalink

I understand your frustration. I think your efforts would be better spent though trying to convince the community to action with hard data, like the number of users who are switching to Java 8 right now that can't figure out how to install the feature patch. Is there a bug report where this is being gathered?

Doug.

________________________________
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:03 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

You seem to be saying that I dont know how these releases are put together or who does the work. Thats low.

You are quite right that there is no consensus. It is quite sad to see this. There is lots of talk about needing to make ensure that Eclipse remains competitive, but when time comes to do something concretely towards that, there is little interest. Let there be no mistake, it is a bad completive position to have Eclipse ship official Java 8 support three months behind the competition. For developers immersed in Eclipse internals daily, it may not seem like a big deal to ask users to seek out and install various patches or to use a Luna pre-release build or to just wait, but average users dont see it that way.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:35 PM
To: ***@eclipse.org; Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Yes, you have to remember, the Foundation doesn't put together releases, the projects do. And Mike is correct, there isn't consensus from the projects that a Kepler SR3 is warranted versus putting resources on Luna. The feature patch install is easy and just needs to be made more visible, as Mike is proposing to do.

Doug.

________________________________
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Mike Milinkovich [***@eclipse.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:43 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
Well, it is more work, but it shouldnt be a lot of work since the bulk of it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse community and Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is desirable. That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps outlined in my email from earlier today.

In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF is proposing to do.
--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org<mailto:***@eclipse.org>
+1.613.220.3223

Igor Fedorenko

2014-03-27 23:38:06 UTC

Permalink

We are not allowed to collect any usage stats, so "gut feeling" is the
most scientific tool available to us.

Sorry, could not resist.

--
Regards,
Igor

On 2014-03-27, 19:26, Doug Schaefer wrote:
> I understand your frustration. I think your efforts would be better
> spent though trying to convince the community to action with hard data,
> like the number of users who are switching to Java 8 right now that
> can't figure out how to install the feature patch. Is there a bug report
> where this is being gathered?
>
> Doug.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
> [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
> Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:03 PM
> *To:* 'Cross project issues'
> *Subject:* Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>
> You seem to be saying that I don’t know how these releases are put
> together or who does the work. That’s low.
>
> You are quite right that there is no consensus. It is quite sad to see
> this. There is lots of talk about needing to make ensure that Eclipse
> remains competitive, but when time comes to do something concretely
> towards that, there is little interest. Let there be no mistake, it is a
> bad completive position to have Eclipse ship official Java 8 support
> three months behind the competition. For developers immersed in Eclipse
> internals daily, it may not seem like a big deal to ask users to seek
> out and install various patches or to use a Luna pre-release build or to
> just wait, but average users don’t see it that way.
>
> - Konstantin
>
> *From:*cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
> [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Doug Schaefer
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:35 PM
> *To:* ***@eclipse.org; Cross project issues
> *Subject:* Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>
> Yes, you have to remember, the Foundation doesn't put together releases,
> the projects do. And Mike is correct, there isn't consensus from the
> projects that a Kepler SR3 is warranted versus putting resources on
> Luna. The feature patch install is easy and just needs to be made more
> visible, as Mike is proposing to do.
>
> Doug.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
> <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
> [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Mike
> Milinkovich [***@eclipse.org]
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:43 PM
> *To:* 'Cross project issues'
> *Subject:* Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
>
> On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
>
> Well, it is more work, but it shouldn’t be a lot of work since the
> bulk of it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse
> community and Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.
>
>
> My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is
> desirable. That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps
> outlined in my email from earlier today.
>
> In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've
> started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF
> is proposing to do.
>
> --
> Mike Milinkovich
> ***@eclipse.org <mailto:***@eclipse.org>
> +1.613.220.3223
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
> cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev
>

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-28 02:44:48 UTC

Permalink

Clearly debating this further will not lead to anything productive, so how
about this instead.

I will volunteer to write a script that takes existing Kepler SR2 packages,
installs the Java 8 patches into them and re-packages them. I will do all
the work if I have a commitment to publish these packages at a reasonable
location in eclipse.org main downloads area.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:26 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I understand your frustration. I think your efforts would be better spent
though trying to convince the community to action with hard data, like the
number of users who are switching to Java 8 right now that can't figure out
how to install the feature patch. Is there a bug report where this is being
gathered?

Doug.

_____

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:03 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

You seem to be saying that I don't know how these releases are put together
or who does the work. That's low.

You are quite right that there is no consensus. It is quite sad to see this.
There is lots of talk about needing to make ensure that Eclipse remains
competitive, but when time comes to do something concretely towards that,
there is little interest. Let there be no mistake, it is a bad completive
position to have Eclipse ship official Java 8 support three months behind
the competition. For developers immersed in Eclipse internals daily, it may
not seem like a big deal to ask users to seek out and install various
patches or to use a Luna pre-release build or to just wait, but average
users don't see it that way.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:35 PM
To: ***@eclipse.org; Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Yes, you have to remember, the Foundation doesn't put together releases, the
projects do. And Mike is correct, there isn't consensus from the projects
that a Kepler SR3 is warranted versus putting resources on Luna. The feature
patch install is easy and just needs to be made more visible, as Mike is
proposing to do.

Doug.

_____

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Mike Milinkovich
[***@eclipse.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:43 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:

Well, it is more work, but it shouldn't be a lot of work since the bulk of
it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse community and
Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is desirable.
That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps outlined in my
email from earlier today.

In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've
started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF is
proposing to do.

--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223

David M Williams

2014-03-28 05:04:33 UTC

Permalink

Konstantin, thanks for the offer. I have added it to the list of
alternatives the Planning Council will discuss next Wednesday, but off the
top of my head, I think simply applying the patches (without the normal
development cycle of community feedback, and testing) sounds a bit
dangerous for something intended to "show off" how great we are. But, I'll
see what rest of Planning Council thinks. Thanks again. (And, if not that,
I'm sure there's plenty of other ways you can help).

= = = =

All, I have opened a bug to get a concrete list of "who has something for
Java 8 to patch Kepler SR2". I know some of you have mentioned it here on
this list, but it is easy for me to miss something, so please repeat.
Please see/respond in bug 431427.
Bug 431427 - Who has "Java 8 Patch" for Kepler SR2?

Please give the data requested there by next Tuesday, April 1 (no, no
fooling) so that the Planning Council has the data available when they
meet on Wednesday, April 2. (but, no need to argue, there in the bug, pros
and cons of various plans ... I think we have done that here on this list,
and my hope is the Planning Council can come to some consensus on the best
course of action).

I also wanted to give my sincere apologies for not thinking to coordinate
or plan this better. It seems the Java 8 support patch caught many people
by surprise. While there has been occasional "status updates" and mentions
of it announced on "eclipse-dev" list (and else where), I think that 1)
that doesn't get the visibility we thought it did, and 2) I suspect there
was a certain tone of caution that leads to "under promise and over
deliver" -- after all, it was a pretty large, risky proposition to begin
with, and quite an accomplishment the JDT team (and others) were able to
pull it off. But still, apologies for not thinking ahead on this one.

Thanks to all of you who have commented on this issue, and care so deeply
about Eclipse.

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>,
Date: 03/27/2014 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

Clearly debating this further will not lead to anything productive, so how
about this insteadâŠ

I will volunteer to write a script that takes existing Kepler SR2
packages, installs the Java 8 patches into them and re-packages them. I
will do all the work if I have a commitment to publish these packages at a
reasonable location in eclipse.org main downloads area.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:26 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I understand your frustration. I think your efforts would be better spent
though trying to convince the community to action with hard data, like the
number of users who are switching to Java 8 right now that can't figure
out how to install the feature patch. Is there a bug report where this is
being gathered?

Doug.

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:03 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
You seem to be saying that I donât know how these releases are put
together or who does the work. Thatâs low.

You are quite right that there is no consensus. It is quite sad to see
this. There is lots of talk about needing to make ensure that Eclipse
remains competitive, but when time comes to do something concretely
towards that, there is little interest. Let there be no mistake, it is a
bad completive position to have Eclipse ship official Java 8 support three
months behind the competition. For developers immersed in Eclipse
internals daily, it may not seem like a big deal to ask users to seek out
and install various patches or to use a Luna pre-release build or to just
wait, but average users donât see it that way.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:35 PM
To: ***@eclipse.org; Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Yes, you have to remember, the Foundation doesn't put together releases,
the projects do. And Mike is correct, there isn't consensus from the
projects that a Kepler SR3 is warranted versus putting resources on Luna.
The feature patch install is easy and just needs to be made more visible,
as Mike is proposing to do.

Doug.

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Mike
Milinkovich [***@eclipse.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:43 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
Well, it is more work, but it shouldnât be a lot of work since the bulk of
it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse community and
Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is
desirable. That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps
outlined in my email from earlier today.

In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've
started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF
is proposing to do.
--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-28 08:00:32 UTC

Permalink

> I have added it to the list of alternatives the Planning Council will discuss next Wednesday,

Thanks for adding this to the agenda.

> I think simply applying the patches (without the normal development cycle of community feedback,

> and testing) sounds a bit dangerous for something intended to "show off" how great we are

The idea behind this proposal is to take bits previously officially released and combine them in the way that an end user would combine them. So, if a project is comfortable with their patch that Mike is getting ready to promote more broadly, there is no reason to differentiate applying the patch by the user vs applying the patch by an automated process. The end result is binary identical. The same could not be said about my initial Kepler SR3 proposal which would require re-building from source per our usual release process. That approach is arguably cleaner, but would require more testing to at least ensure that nothing unintended has slipped into the build.

Several JDT devs on this thread have voiced concern over stability of Java 8 support since it hasnât had time to shake out all the bugs. In light of those concerns, perhaps it would be appropriate to label the patch repositories and the proposed packages as âJava 8 Support Tech Previewâ. I think everyone would agree that making a tech preview available in more forms to make it easier for users to consume benefits everybody. And before anyone brings that up again, no, thatâs not the same thing as using a Luna I-Build.

In this thread I have heard the following used as justification for why action is not necessary:

1. Users would not mind waiting three months for Luna GA.

2. Users would not mind using a Luna I-Build or Luna M7 (after waiting until May for it).

3. Users would not mind applying patches to Kepler SR2 on their own.

4. The patches arenât ready for prime time.

5. Itâs a lot of work to add this unplanned release.

One of my justifications for making this offer is that Iâd like to take âa lot of workâ argument off the table by offering to do basically all of the work myself. I would need help getting the new packages on the download server and updating the download pages, but thatâs it. So if the Planning Council votes to maintain status quo, I do not want to see âa lot of workâ used in the justification. J

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of David M Williams
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 10:05 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Konstantin, thanks for the offer. I have added it to the list of alternatives the Planning Council will discuss next Wednesday, but off the top of my head, I think simply applying the patches (without the normal development cycle of community feedback, and testing) sounds a bit dangerous for something intended to "show off" how great we are. But, I'll see what rest of Planning Council thinks. Thanks again. (And, if not that, I'm sure there's plenty of other ways you can help).

= = = =

All, I have opened a bug to get a concrete list of "who has something for Java 8 to patch Kepler SR2". I know some of you have mentioned it here on this list, but it is easy for me to miss something, so please repeat.
Please see/respond in bug 431427.
<https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=431427> Bug 431427 - Who has "Java 8 Patch" for Kepler SR2?

Please give the data requested there by next Tuesday, April 1 (no, no fooling) so that the Planning Council has the data available when they meet on Wednesday, April 2. (but, no need to argue, there in the bug, pros and cons of various plans ... I think we have done that here on this list, and my hope is the Planning Council can come to some consensus on the best course of action).

I also wanted to give my sincere apologies for not thinking to coordinate or plan this better. It seems the Java 8 support patch caught many people by surprise. While there has been occasional "status updates" and mentions of it announced on "eclipse-dev" list (and else where), I think that 1) that doesn't get the visibility we thought it did, and 2) I suspect there was a certain tone of caution that leads to "under promise and over deliver" -- after all, it was a pretty large, risky proposition to begin with, and quite an accomplishment the JDT team (and others) were able to pull it off. But still, apologies for not thinking ahead on this one.

Thanks to all of you who have commented on this issue, and care so deeply about Eclipse.

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>,
Date: 03/27/2014 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

_____

Clearly debating this further will not lead to anything productive, so how about this insteadâŠ

I will volunteer to write a script that takes existing Kepler SR2 packages, installs the Java 8 patches into them and re-packages them. I will do all the work if I have a commitment to publish these packages at a reasonable location in eclipse.org main downloads area.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [ <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:26 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I understand your frustration. I think your efforts would be better spent though trying to convince the community to action with hard data, like the number of users who are switching to Java 8 right now that can't figure out how to install the feature patch. Is there a bug report where this is being gathered?

Doug.

_____

From: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:03 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
You seem to be saying that I donât know how these releases are put together or who does the work. Thatâs low.

You are quite right that there is no consensus. It is quite sad to see this. There is lots of talk about needing to make ensure that Eclipse remains competitive, but when time comes to do something concretely towards that, there is little interest. Let there be no mistake, it is a bad completive position to have Eclipse ship official Java 8 support three months behind the competition. For developers immersed in Eclipse internals daily, it may not seem like a big deal to ask users to seek out and install various patches or to use a Luna pre-release build or to just wait, but average users donât see it that way.

- Konstantin

From: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [ <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:35 PM
To: <mailto:***@eclipse.org> ***@eclipse.org; Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Yes, you have to remember, the Foundation doesn't put together releases, the projects do. And Mike is correct, there isn't consensus from the projects that a Kepler SR3 is warranted versus putting resources on Luna. The feature patch install is easy and just needs to be made more visible, as Mike is proposing to do.

Doug.

_____

From: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Mike Milinkovich [***@eclipse.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:43 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
Well, it is more work, but it shouldnât be a lot of work since the bulk of it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse community and Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is desirable. That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps outlined in my email from earlier today.

In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF is proposing to do.
--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
<https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

Stephan Herrmann

2014-03-28 12:30:34 UTC

Permalink

On 03/28/2014 09:00 AM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
> Several JDT devs on this thread have voiced concern over stability of Java 8 support
> since it hasn’t had time to shake out all the bugs.

I don't know anyone in our team who would say the release on March 18
didn't have release quality.

Please carefully read, what people are writing!!

The only point that has been argued is that this release does not
qualify as a *service release*, which we still define as a release
with only bug fixes, no new features and hence no new bugs.

And mind you: when JDT devs mention that we might have bugs in
a certain build, that build probably still has higher quality than
many other releases shipped from Eclipse.org :)

cheers,
Stephan

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-03-28 14:02:25 UTC

Permalink

Stephan,

I was not trying to offend anyone with this statement. If it came across
that way, I apologize.

I do want to point out that when I suggested that presenting this as a
service release was not a necessity (see Kepler J8 variant in the thread),
members of the JDT team still were in opposition, which I read as hesitation
over presenting the released patch as finished release quality. If you look
through the thread, you will see that others took those statements in the
same way. Judging by your reaction, it sounds like we all misread what was
said. That's excellent news as it removes one more objection from the
summary in my last message and would make it that much easier for the
Planning Council to come to a decision.

Thanks,

- Konstantin

-----Original Message-----
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Stephan
Herrmann
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 5:31 AM
To: cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

On 03/28/2014 09:00 AM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
> Several JDT devs on this thread have voiced concern over stability of
> Java 8 support
> since it hasn't had time to shake out all the bugs.

I don't know anyone in our team who would say the release on March 18 didn't
have release quality.

Please carefully read, what people are writing!!

The only point that has been argued is that this release does not qualify as
a *service release*, which we still define as a release with only bug fixes,
no new features and hence no new bugs.

And mind you: when JDT devs mention that we might have bugs in a certain
build, that build probably still has higher quality than many other releases
shipped from Eclipse.org :)

cheers,
Stephan

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-04-04 03:49:53 UTC

Permalink

The Planning Council met yesterday and approved creation of Kepler SR2
packages with Java 8 patches installed.

https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_02_2014

Per the planning council resolution, I sent an e-mail to epp-dev giving the
package maintainers an option to opt-out of this. So far, there has been no
opt-outs. The deadline to opt-out is by the end of this week. Similarly, I
send an e-mail to m2e-dev to confirm that there are no objections to
inclusion of m2e 1.4.1 release to clarify previous statements made on this
thread. Igor Fedorenko has indicated that they have no objections.

In the meantime, I wrote a script to do the necessary work and the packages
are available now.

Of the twelve Kepler SR2 packages, three (cpp, parallel and testing) do not
contain any of the patched components and are excluded from this effort.

Packages

========================

I am reusing Sapphire's Hudson instance to build these packages as I am not
an EPP committer.

https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/
artifact/releng/java-8/packages/

Script

========================

https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/
artifact/releng/java-8/build.xml

The script downloads all of its own dependencies, including ant-contrib and
the various Eclipse bits. All you need to run it is Ant. Copy the script to
an empty folder and execute "ant" from this folder.

The part of the script that takes the longest is the download of the Kepler
SR2 packages, but the downloads are cached so that if something causes the
script to abort in the middle, you will not need to re-download everything.

The Kepler SR2 packages are checksum verified after the download or after
fetching from cache.

For each of JDT, PDE, WTP and M2E, the script installs the patch/update if
the target is found.

Downloads Page

========================

It would be good to start working on the required changes to the downloads
page. I opened a bug to track this portion of the effort.

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=431955

My recommendation is to add "Java 8" as a tab between "Packages" and
"Developer Builds".

On a somewhat unrelated note, I think the existing tab labels could be
improved.

Packages - This does not adequately define the content found on that tab
since all of the tabs contain packages. How about "Stable" instead?

Developer Builds - This does not define which stream the builds are from.
That is, this tab does not lead to developer builds from the maintenance
stream nor to i-builds, etc. How about "Luna M6" instead?

If the above proposal is accepted, the tabs would be. Stable, Java 8, Luna
M6

Final Steps

========================

Per the planning council resolution, no sign-offs are required from package
maintainers. I have done a few basic sanity checks on a couple of packages,
but I am mostly relying on automation to ensure the integrity of these
packages. If anyone would like to conduct a few tests before these packages
are made public, you have until the end of this week to do so.

On Monday, I will need help from an EPP committer or a webmaster to move the
packages to their final location. I am not an EPP committer, so I don't have
write access to that area of the downloads server. Does anyone wish to
volunteer ahead of time to help me with this? I recommend the following
path.

/technology/epp/downloads/release/kepler/SR2-Java8/

Once the mirrors have been given adequate time to sync, the downloads page
changes can be made public and the new packages publicly announced. I hope
that we can make this happen by early next week.

Thanks,

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of
Konstantin Komissarchik
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 7:45 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Clearly debating this further will not lead to anything productive, so how
about this instead.

I will volunteer to write a script that takes existing Kepler SR2 packages,
installs the Java 8 patches into them and re-packages them. I will do all
the work if I have a commitment to publish these packages at a reasonable
location in eclipse.org main downloads area.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:26 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I understand your frustration. I think your efforts would be better spent
though trying to convince the community to action with hard data, like the
number of users who are switching to Java 8 right now that can't figure out
how to install the feature patch. Is there a bug report where this is being
gathered?

Doug.

_____

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:03 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

You seem to be saying that I don't know how these releases are put together
or who does the work. That's low.

You are quite right that there is no consensus. It is quite sad to see this.
There is lots of talk about needing to make ensure that Eclipse remains
competitive, but when time comes to do something concretely towards that,
there is little interest. Let there be no mistake, it is a bad completive
position to have Eclipse ship official Java 8 support three months behind
the competition. For developers immersed in Eclipse internals daily, it may
not seem like a big deal to ask users to seek out and install various
patches or to use a Luna pre-release build or to just wait, but average
users don't see it that way.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:35 PM
To: ***@eclipse.org; Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Yes, you have to remember, the Foundation doesn't put together releases, the
projects do. And Mike is correct, there isn't consensus from the projects
that a Kepler SR3 is warranted versus putting resources on Luna. The feature
patch install is easy and just needs to be made more visible, as Mike is
proposing to do.

Doug.

_____

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Mike Milinkovich
[***@eclipse.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:43 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:

Well, it is more work, but it shouldn't be a lot of work since the bulk of
it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse community and
Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is desirable.
That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps outlined in my
email from earlier today.

In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've
started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF is
proposing to do.

--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223

David M Williams

2014-04-04 07:01:39 UTC

Permalink

I wanted to correct the title of this note and thread, since it was clear,
that the planning council in no way considers this "SR3" and one of our
cautions was not to "oversell it".
It is after all, making something available for mass downloads, that has
not had any quality control at all. In theory it should work just fine ...
but no quality engineer would ever accept "in theory" as adequate quality
control. While the probability of surprises is low, the consequences of
surprises is high -- we'd could end up giving a bad impression in the
community and industry -- the opposite of that we are trying to do. (And
as everyone knows, "satisfaction" is highly related to what ones
pre-conceived expectations are).

Similar, the recommendation of "stable", Java 8, Luna 6 as the tabs is
opposite, from what Planning Council recommended. In no way, should SR2 +
Patches be presented as "above" the Official Service Release -- it is no
release at all -- it is simply "Kepler SR2 with patches pre-applied"
(which is the wording the planning council recommended), as well as
placing the links on the existing "Java 8" page that the EF has kindly
provided. And I have already communicated all this to the, EF (Wayne) as
we agreed in the meeting.

We really appreciate Konstantin doing this work, but felt I had to speak
up and clarify on several items, he is giving his view, not the view of
the Planning Council.

Luckily, the Eclipse Foundation "owns" those pages, and as always, they
can decide themselves how to balance risk with "marketing".

And to clarity one more thing ... I will not argue further about this on
this list ... so will not respond again to this topic on this list, as in
my experience that would be counter productive if not disruptive. So if
the conversation continues, my silence does not imply agreement ... nor
that I do not care -- I care deeply. I am responding this once trying to
correct any mis-representations of "what the Planning Council said". And,
beside, the purpose of this list is to communicate about the Simultaneous
Release, not to argue or editorialize. So, let's get on with Luna ... and
Mars!

I hope I have accomplished in making things clearer, as well as expressing
our sincere appreciation to Konstantin for producing the Kepler SR2
Release with Patches pre-applied,

Thanks for reading.

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>,
Date: 04/03/2014 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

The Planning Council met yesterday and approved creation of Kepler SR2
packages with Java 8 patches installed.

https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_02_2014

Per the planning council resolution, I sent an e-mail to epp-dev giving
the package maintainers an option to opt-out of this. So far, there has
been no opt-outs. The deadline to opt-out is by the end of this week.
Similarly, I send an e-mail to m2e-dev to confirm that there are no
objections to inclusion of m2e 1.4.1 release to clarify previous
statements made on this thread. Igor Fedorenko has indicated that they
have no objections.

In the meantime, I wrote a script to do the necessary work and the
packages are available now.

Of the twelve Kepler SR2 packages, three (cpp, parallel and testing) do
not contain any of the patched components and are excluded from this
effort.

Packages
========================

I am reusing Sapphireâs Hudson instance to build these packages as I am
not an EPP committer.

https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/releng/java-8/packages/

Script
========================

https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/releng/java-8/build.xml

The script downloads all of its own dependencies, including ant-contrib
and the various Eclipse bits. All you need to run it is Ant. Copy the
script to an empty folder and execute "ant" from this folder.

The part of the script that takes the longest is the download of the
Kepler SR2 packages, but the downloads are cached so that if something
causes the script to abort in the middle, you will not need to re-download
everything.

The Kepler SR2 packages are checksum verified after the download or after
fetching from cache.

For each of JDT, PDE, WTP and M2E, the script installs the patch/update if
the target is found.

Downloads Page
========================

It would be good to start working on the required changes to the downloads
page. I opened a bug to track this portion of the effort.

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=431955

My recommendation is to add âJava 8â as a tab between âPackagesâ and
âDeveloper Buildsâ.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I think the existing tab labels could be
improvedâŠ

Packages â This does not adequately define the content found on that tab
since all of the tabs contain packages. How about âStableâ instead?

Developer Builds â This does not define which stream the builds are from.
That is, this tab does not lead to developer builds from the maintenance
stream nor to i-builds, etc. How about âLuna M6â instead?

If the above proposal is accepted, the tabs would beâŠ Stable, Java 8, Luna
M6

Final Steps
========================

Per the planning council resolution, no sign-offs are required from
package maintainers. I have done a few basic sanity checks on a couple of
packages, but I am mostly relying on automation to ensure the integrity of
these packages. If anyone would like to conduct a few tests before these
packages are made public, you have until the end of this week to do so.

On Monday, I will need help from an EPP committer or a webmaster to move
the packages to their final location. I am not an EPP committer, so I
donât have write access to that area of the downloads server. Does anyone
wish to volunteer ahead of time to help me with this? I recommend the
following pathâŠ

/technology/epp/downloads/release/kepler/SR2-Java8/

Once the mirrors have been given adequate time to sync, the downloads page
changes can be made public and the new packages publicly announced. I hope
that we can make this happen by early next week.

Thanks,

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of
Konstantin Komissarchik
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 7:45 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Clearly debating this further will not lead to anything productive, so how
about this insteadâŠ

I will volunteer to write a script that takes existing Kepler SR2
packages, installs the Java 8 patches into them and re-packages them. I
will do all the work if I have a commitment to publish these packages at a
reasonable location in eclipse.org main downloads area.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:26 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I understand your frustration. I think your efforts would be better spent
though trying to convince the community to action with hard data, like the
number of users who are switching to Java 8 right now that can't figure
out how to install the feature patch. Is there a bug report where this is
being gathered?

Doug.

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:03 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
You seem to be saying that I donât know how these releases are put
together or who does the work. Thatâs low.

You are quite right that there is no consensus. It is quite sad to see
this. There is lots of talk about needing to make ensure that Eclipse
remains competitive, but when time comes to do something concretely
towards that, there is little interest. Let there be no mistake, it is a
bad completive position to have Eclipse ship official Java 8 support three
months behind the competition. For developers immersed in Eclipse
internals daily, it may not seem like a big deal to ask users to seek out
and install various patches or to use a Luna pre-release build or to just
wait, but average users donât see it that way.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:35 PM
To: ***@eclipse.org; Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Yes, you have to remember, the Foundation doesn't put together releases,
the projects do. And Mike is correct, there isn't consensus from the
projects that a Kepler SR3 is warranted versus putting resources on Luna.
The feature patch install is easy and just needs to be made more visible,
as Mike is proposing to do.

Doug.

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Mike
Milinkovich [***@eclipse.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:43 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
Well, it is more work, but it shouldnât be a lot of work since the bulk of
it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse community and
Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is
desirable. That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps
outlined in my email from earlier today.

In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've
started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF
is proposing to do.
--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

Daniel Megert

2014-04-04 07:30:59 UTC

Permalink

Just to confirm David's comments: Yes, the PC decided it should not be
labelled "release", "SR3" or "SR2 with Java 8" but instead clearly state
that the patches are installed/applied. Let's use
https://bugs.eclipse.org/431955 for the detailed discussion about how we
best present this on our downloads page.

Dani

From: David M Williams <***@us.ibm.com>
To: Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
Date: 04.04.2014 09:02
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR2 with Patches
pre-installed
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

I wanted to correct the title of this note and thread, since it was clear,
that the planning council in no way considers this "SR3" and one of our
cautions was not to "oversell it".
It is after all, making something available for mass downloads, that has
not had any quality control at all. In theory it should work just fine ...
but no quality engineer would ever accept "in theory" as adequate quality
control. While the probability of surprises is low, the consequences of
surprises is high -- we'd could end up giving a bad impression in the
community and industry -- the opposite of that we are trying to do. (And
as everyone knows, "satisfaction" is highly related to what ones
pre-conceived expectations are).

Similar, the recommendation of "stable", Java 8, Luna 6 as the tabs is
opposite, from what Planning Council recommended. In no way, should SR2 +
Patches be presented as "above" the Official Service Release -- it is no
release at all -- it is simply "Kepler SR2 with patches pre-applied"
(which is the wording the planning council recommended), as well as
placing the links on the existing "Java 8" page that the EF has kindly
provided. And I have already communicated all this to the, EF (Wayne) as
we agreed in the meeting.

We really appreciate Konstantin doing this work, but felt I had to speak
up and clarify on several items, he is giving his view, not the view of
the Planning Council.

Luckily, the Eclipse Foundation "owns" those pages, and as always, they
can decide themselves how to balance risk with "marketing".

And to clarity one more thing ... I will not argue further about this on
this list ... so will not respond again to this topic on this list, as in
my experience that would be counter productive if not disruptive. So if
the conversation continues, my silence does not imply agreement ... nor
that I do not care -- I care deeply. I am responding this once trying to
correct any mis-representations of "what the Planning Council said". And,
beside, the purpose of this list is to communicate about the Simultaneous
Release, not to argue or editorialize. So, let's get on with Luna ... and
Mars!

I hope I have accomplished in making things clearer, as well as expressing
our sincere appreciation to Konstantin for producing the Kepler SR2
Release with Patches pre-applied,

Thanks for reading.

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik"
<***@oracle.com>
To: "'Cross project issues'"
<cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>,
Date: 04/03/2014 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

The Planning Council met yesterday and approved creation of Kepler SR2
packages with Java 8 patches installed.

https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_02_2014

Per the planning council resolution, I sent an e-mail to epp-dev giving
the package maintainers an option to opt-out of this. So far, there has
been no opt-outs. The deadline to opt-out is by the end of this week.
Similarly, I send an e-mail to m2e-dev to confirm that there are no
objections to inclusion of m2e 1.4.1 release to clarify previous
statements made on this thread. Igor Fedorenko has indicated that they
have no objections.

In the meantime, I wrote a script to do the necessary work and the
packages are available now.

Of the twelve Kepler SR2 packages, three (cpp, parallel and testing) do
not contain any of the patched components and are excluded from this
effort.

Packages
========================

I am reusing Sapphire?s Hudson instance to build these packages as I am
not an EPP committer.

https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/releng/java-8/packages/

Script
========================

https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/releng/java-8/build.xml

The script downloads all of its own dependencies, including ant-contrib
and the various Eclipse bits. All you need to run it is Ant. Copy the
script to an empty folder and execute "ant" from this folder.

The part of the script that takes the longest is the download of the
Kepler SR2 packages, but the downloads are cached so that if something
causes the script to abort in the middle, you will not need to re-download
everything.

The Kepler SR2 packages are checksum verified after the download or after
fetching from cache.

For each of JDT, PDE, WTP and M2E, the script installs the patch/update if
the target is found.

Downloads Page
========================

It would be good to start working on the required changes to the downloads
page. I opened a bug to track this portion of the effort.

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=431955

My recommendation is to add ?Java 8? as a tab between ?Packages? and
?Developer Builds?.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I think the existing tab labels could be
improved?

Packages ? This does not adequately define the content found on that tab
since all of the tabs contain packages. How about ?Stable? instead?

Developer Builds ? This does not define which stream the builds are from.
That is, this tab does not lead to developer builds from the maintenance
stream nor to i-builds, etc. How about ?Luna M6? instead?

If the above proposal is accepted, the tabs would be? Stable, Java 8, Luna
M6

Final Steps
========================

Per the planning council resolution, no sign-offs are required from
package maintainers. I have done a few basic sanity checks on a couple of
packages, but I am mostly relying on automation to ensure the integrity of
these packages. If anyone would like to conduct a few tests before these
packages are made public, you have until the end of this week to do so.

On Monday, I will need help from an EPP committer or a webmaster to move
the packages to their final location. I am not an EPP committer, so I
don?t have write access to that area of the downloads server. Does anyone
wish to volunteer ahead of time to help me with this? I recommend the
following path?

/technology/epp/downloads/release/kepler/SR2-Java8/

Once the mirrors have been given adequate time to sync, the downloads page
changes can be made public and the new packages publicly announced. I hope
that we can make this happen by early next week.

Thanks,

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of
Konstantin Komissarchik
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 7:45 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Clearly debating this further will not lead to anything productive, so how
about this instead?

I will volunteer to write a script that takes existing Kepler SR2
packages, installs the Java 8 patches into them and re-packages them. I
will do all the work if I have a commitment to publish these packages at a
reasonable location in eclipse.org main downloads area.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:26 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I understand your frustration. I think your efforts would be better spent
though trying to convince the community to action with hard data, like the
number of users who are switching to Java 8 right now that can't figure
out how to install the feature patch. Is there a bug report where this is
being gathered?

Doug.

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:03 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
You seem to be saying that I don?t know how these releases are put
together or who does the work. That?s low.

You are quite right that there is no consensus. It is quite sad to see
this. There is lots of talk about needing to make ensure that Eclipse
remains competitive, but when time comes to do something concretely
towards that, there is little interest. Let there be no mistake, it is a
bad completive position to have Eclipse ship official Java 8 support three
months behind the competition. For developers immersed in Eclipse
internals daily, it may not seem like a big deal to ask users to seek out
and install various patches or to use a Luna pre-release build or to just
wait, but average users don?t see it that way.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:35 PM
To: ***@eclipse.org; Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Yes, you have to remember, the Foundation doesn't put together releases,
the projects do. And Mike is correct, there isn't consensus from the
projects that a Kepler SR3 is warranted versus putting resources on Luna.
The feature patch install is easy and just needs to be made more visible,
as Mike is proposing to do.

Doug.

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Mike
Milinkovich [***@eclipse.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:43 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
Well, it is more work, but it shouldn?t be a lot of work since the bulk of
it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse community and
Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is
desirable. That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps
outlined in my email from earlier today.

In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've
started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF
is proposing to do.
--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-04-04 14:19:15 UTC

Permalink

David,

As long as we are clarifying thingsâŠ The Planning Council did decide to label it as âKepler SR2 with Java 8 patches appliedâ, but I heard no resolution to the question of how it should be presented on the downloads page. Several options were discussed, including a tab (my personal preference that I labeled as such in this e-mail) or a banner similar to a promoted download, but no conclusion was made. In particular, the Planning Council did not resolve to expose this through a link in small font under âRelated Linksâ as you propose in the notes. In fact, I made it clear several times that my offer to produce these packages is conditioned on the result being prominently displayed on the downloads page and not hidden where people have a hard time finding it.

I do not see anywhere in my e-mail that I have misrepresented what the Planning Council has decided and deeply resent the implication.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of David M Williams
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 12:02 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR2 with Patches pre-installed

I wanted to correct the title of this note and thread, since it was clear, that the planning council in no way considers this "SR3" and one of our cautions was not to "oversell it".
It is after all, making something available for mass downloads, that has not had any quality control at all. In theory it should work just fine ... but no quality engineer would ever accept "in theory" as adequate quality control. While the probability of surprises is low, the consequences of surprises is high -- we'd could end up giving a bad impression in the community and industry -- the opposite of that we are trying to do. (And as everyone knows, "satisfaction" is highly related to what ones pre-conceived expectations are).

Similar, the recommendation of "stable", Java 8, Luna 6 as the tabs is opposite, from what Planning Council recommended. In no way, should SR2 + Patches be presented as "above" the Official Service Release -- it is no release at all -- it is simply "Kepler SR2 with patches pre-applied" (which is the wording the planning council recommended), as well as placing the links on the existing "Java 8" page that the EF has kindly provided. And I have already communicated all this to the, EF (Wayne) as we agreed in the meeting.

We really appreciate Konstantin doing this work, but felt I had to speak up and clarify on several items, he is giving his view, not the view of the Planning Council.

Luckily, the Eclipse Foundation "owns" those pages, and as always, they can decide themselves how to balance risk with "marketing".

And to clarity one more thing ... I will not argue further about this on this list ... so will not respond again to this topic on this list, as in my experience that would be counter productive if not disruptive. So if the conversation continues, my silence does not imply agreement ... nor that I do not care -- I care deeply. I am responding this once trying to correct any mis-representations of "what the Planning Council said". And, beside, the purpose of this list is to communicate about the Simultaneous Release, not to argue or editorialize. So, let's get on with Luna ... and Mars!

I hope I have accomplished in making things clearer, as well as expressing our sincere appreciation to Konstantin for producing the Kepler SR2 Release with Patches pre-applied,

Thanks for reading.

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>,
Date: 04/03/2014 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

_____

The Planning Council met yesterday and approved creation of Kepler SR2 packages with Java 8 patches installed.

<https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_02_2014> https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_02_2014

Per the planning council resolution, I sent an e-mail to epp-dev giving the package maintainers an option to opt-out of this. So far, there has been no opt-outs. The deadline to opt-out is by the end of this week. Similarly, I send an e-mail to m2e-dev to confirm that there are no objections to inclusion of m2e 1.4.1 release to clarify previous statements made on this thread. Igor Fedorenko has indicated that they have no objections.

In the meantime, I wrote a script to do the necessary work and the packages are available now.

Of the twelve Kepler SR2 packages, three (cpp, parallel and testing) do not contain any of the patched components and are excluded from this effort.

Packages
========================

I am reusing Sapphireâs Hudson instance to build these packages as I am not an EPP committer.

<https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/releng/java-8/packages/> https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/releng/java-8/packages/

Script
========================

<https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/releng/java-8/build.xml> https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/releng/java-8/build.xml

The script downloads all of its own dependencies, including ant-contrib and the various Eclipse bits. All you need to run it is Ant. Copy the script to an empty folder and execute "ant" from this folder.

The part of the script that takes the longest is the download of the Kepler SR2 packages, but the downloads are cached so that if something causes the script to abort in the middle, you will not need to re-download everything.

The Kepler SR2 packages are checksum verified after the download or after fetching from cache.

For each of JDT, PDE, WTP and M2E, the script installs the patch/update if the target is found.

Downloads Page
========================

It would be good to start working on the required changes to the downloads page. I opened a bug to track this portion of the effort.

<https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=431955> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=431955

My recommendation is to add âJava 8â as a tab between âPackagesâ and âDeveloper Buildsâ.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I think the existing tab labels could be improvedâŠ

Packages â This does not adequately define the content found on that tab since all of the tabs contain packages. How about âStableâ instead?

Developer Builds â This does not define which stream the builds are from. That is, this tab does not lead to developer builds from the maintenance stream nor to i-builds, etc. How about âLuna M6â instead?

If the above proposal is accepted, the tabs would beâŠ Stable, Java 8, Luna M6

Final Steps
========================

Per the planning council resolution, no sign-offs are required from package maintainers. I have done a few basic sanity checks on a couple of packages, but I am mostly relying on automation to ensure the integrity of these packages. If anyone would like to conduct a few tests before these packages are made public, you have until the end of this week to do so.

On Monday, I will need help from an EPP committer or a webmaster to move the packages to their final location. I am not an EPP committer, so I donât have write access to that area of the downloads server. Does anyone wish to volunteer ahead of time to help me with this? I recommend the following pathâŠ

/technology/epp/downloads/release/kepler/SR2-Java8/

Once the mirrors have been given adequate time to sync, the downloads page changes can be made public and the new packages publicly announced. I hope that we can make this happen by early next week.

Thanks,

- Konstantin

From: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [ <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Konstantin Komissarchik
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 7:45 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Clearly debating this further will not lead to anything productive, so how about this insteadâŠ

I will volunteer to write a script that takes existing Kepler SR2 packages, installs the Java 8 patches into them and re-packages them. I will do all the work if I have a commitment to publish these packages at a reasonable location in eclipse.org main downloads area.

- Konstantin

From: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [ <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:26 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I understand your frustration. I think your efforts would be better spent though trying to convince the community to action with hard data, like the number of users who are switching to Java 8 right now that can't figure out how to install the feature patch. Is there a bug report where this is being gathered?

Doug.

_____

From: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:03 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
You seem to be saying that I donât know how these releases are put together or who does the work. Thatâs low.

You are quite right that there is no consensus. It is quite sad to see this. There is lots of talk about needing to make ensure that Eclipse remains competitive, but when time comes to do something concretely towards that, there is little interest. Let there be no mistake, it is a bad completive position to have Eclipse ship official Java 8 support three months behind the competition. For developers immersed in Eclipse internals daily, it may not seem like a big deal to ask users to seek out and install various patches or to use a Luna pre-release build or to just wait, but average users donât see it that way.

- Konstantin

From: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [ <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:35 PM
To: <mailto:***@eclipse.org> ***@eclipse.org; Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Yes, you have to remember, the Foundation doesn't put together releases, the projects do. And Mike is correct, there isn't consensus from the projects that a Kepler SR3 is warranted versus putting resources on Luna. The feature patch install is easy and just needs to be made more visible, as Mike is proposing to do.

Doug.

_____

From: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Mike Milinkovich [***@eclipse.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:43 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
Well, it is more work, but it shouldnât be a lot of work since the bulk of it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse community and Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is desirable. That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps outlined in my email from earlier today.

In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF is proposing to do.
--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
<https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

Doug Schaefer

2014-04-04 14:26:38 UTC

Permalink

I think David's main point and I think there was agreement on was that these downloads need to look very different from official releases. That rules out a tab (which isn't very prominent anyway) and a link in the mix with the other downloads (which is too prominent). I mentioned putting something in the right panel, not necessarily in the Related Links section but maybe in it's own section above the Related Links. I think that's a nice compromise.

Doug.

________________________________
From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 10:19 AM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR2 with Patches pre-installed

David,

As long as we are clarifying things The Planning Council did decide to label it as Kepler SR2 with Java 8 patches applied, but I heard no resolution to the question of how it should be presented on the downloads page. Several options were discussed, including a tab (my personal preference that I labeled as such in this e-mail) or a banner similar to a promoted download, but no conclusion was made. In particular, the Planning Council did not resolve to expose this through a link in small font under Related Links as you propose in the notes. In fact, I made it clear several times that my offer to produce these packages is conditioned on the result being prominently displayed on the downloads page and not hidden where people have a hard time finding it.

I do not see anywhere in my e-mail that I have misrepresented what the Planning Council has decided and deeply resent the implication.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of David M Williams
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 12:02 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR2 with Patches pre-installed

I wanted to correct the title of this note and thread, since it was clear, that the planning council in no way considers this "SR3" and one of our cautions was not to "oversell it".
It is after all, making something available for mass downloads, that has not had any quality control at all. In theory it should work just fine ... but no quality engineer would ever accept "in theory" as adequate quality control. While the probability of surprises is low, the consequences of surprises is high -- we'd could end up giving a bad impression in the community and industry -- the opposite of that we are trying to do. (And as everyone knows, "satisfaction" is highly related to what ones pre-conceived expectations are).

Similar, the recommendation of "stable", Java 8, Luna 6 as the tabs is opposite, from what Planning Council recommended. In no way, should SR2 + Patches be presented as "above" the Official Service Release -- it is no release at all -- it is simply "Kepler SR2 with patches pre-applied" (which is the wording the planning council recommended), as well as placing the links on the existing "Java 8" page that the EF has kindly provided. And I have already communicated all this to the, EF (Wayne) as we agreed in the meeting.

We really appreciate Konstantin doing this work, but felt I had to speak up and clarify on several items, he is giving his view, not the view of the Planning Council.

Luckily, the Eclipse Foundation "owns" those pages, and as always, they can decide themselves how to balance risk with "marketing".

And to clarity one more thing ... I will not argue further about this on this list ... so will not respond again to this topic on this list, as in my experience that would be counter productive if not disruptive. So if the conversation continues, my silence does not imply agreement ... nor that I do not care -- I care deeply. I am responding this once trying to correct any mis-representations of "what the Planning Council said". And, beside, the purpose of this list is to communicate about the Simultaneous Release, not to argue or editorialize. So, let's get on with Luna ... and Mars!

I hope I have accomplished in making things clearer, as well as expressing our sincere appreciation to Konstantin for producing the Kepler SR2 Release with Patches pre-applied,

Thanks for reading.

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com<mailto:***@oracle.com>>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>>,
Date: 04/03/2014 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
________________________________

The Planning Council met yesterday and approved creation of Kepler SR2 packages with Java 8 patches installed.

https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_02_2014

Per the planning council resolution, I sent an e-mail to epp-dev giving the package maintainers an option to opt-out of this. So far, there has been no opt-outs. The deadline to opt-out is by the end of this week. Similarly, I send an e-mail to m2e-dev to confirm that there are no objections to inclusion of m2e 1.4.1 release to clarify previous statements made on this thread. Igor Fedorenko has indicated that they have no objections.

In the meantime, I wrote a script to do the necessary work and the packages are available now.

Of the twelve Kepler SR2 packages, three (cpp, parallel and testing) do not contain any of the patched components and are excluded from this effort.

Packages
========================

I am reusing Sapphires Hudson instance to build these packages as I am not an EPP committer.

https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/releng/java-8/packages/

Script
========================

https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/releng/java-8/build.xml

The script downloads all of its own dependencies, including ant-contrib and the various Eclipse bits. All you need to run it is Ant. Copy the script to an empty folder and execute "ant" from this folder.

The part of the script that takes the longest is the download of the Kepler SR2 packages, but the downloads are cached so that if something causes the script to abort in the middle, you will not need to re-download everything.

The Kepler SR2 packages are checksum verified after the download or after fetching from cache.

For each of JDT, PDE, WTP and M2E, the script installs the patch/update if the target is found.

Downloads Page
========================

It would be good to start working on the required changes to the downloads page. I opened a bug to track this portion of the effort.

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=431955

My recommendation is to add Java 8 as a tab between Packages and Developer Builds.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I think the existing tab labels could be improved

Packages This does not adequately define the content found on that tab since all of the tabs contain packages. How about Stable instead?

Developer Builds This does not define which stream the builds are from. That is, this tab does not lead to developer builds from the maintenance stream nor to i-builds, etc. How about Luna M6 instead?

If the above proposal is accepted, the tabs would be Stable, Java 8, Luna M6

Final Steps
========================

Per the planning council resolution, no sign-offs are required from package maintainers. I have done a few basic sanity checks on a couple of packages, but I am mostly relying on automation to ensure the integrity of these packages. If anyone would like to conduct a few tests before these packages are made public, you have until the end of this week to do so.

On Monday, I will need help from an EPP committer or a webmaster to move the packages to their final location. I am not an EPP committer, so I dont have write access to that area of the downloads server. Does anyone wish to volunteer ahead of time to help me with this? I recommend the following path

/technology/epp/downloads/release/kepler/SR2-Java8/

Once the mirrors have been given adequate time to sync, the downloads page changes can be made public and the new packages publicly announced. I hope that we can make this happen by early next week.

Thanks,

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Konstantin Komissarchik
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 7:45 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Clearly debating this further will not lead to anything productive, so how about this instead

I will volunteer to write a script that takes existing Kepler SR2 packages, installs the Java 8 patches into them and re-packages them. I will do all the work if I have a commitment to publish these packages at a reasonable location in eclipse.org main downloads area.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:26 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I understand your frustration. I think your efforts would be better spent though trying to convince the community to action with hard data, like the number of users who are switching to Java 8 right now that can't figure out how to install the feature patch. Is there a bug report where this is being gathered?

Doug.

________________________________

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:03 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
You seem to be saying that I dont know how these releases are put together or who does the work. Thats low.

You are quite right that there is no consensus. It is quite sad to see this. There is lots of talk about needing to make ensure that Eclipse remains competitive, but when time comes to do something concretely towards that, there is little interest. Let there be no mistake, it is a bad completive position to have Eclipse ship official Java 8 support three months behind the competition. For developers immersed in Eclipse internals daily, it may not seem like a big deal to ask users to seek out and install various patches or to use a Luna pre-release build or to just wait, but average users dont see it that way.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> [mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:35 PM
To: ***@eclipse.org<mailto:***@eclipse.org>; Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Yes, you have to remember, the Foundation doesn't put together releases, the projects do. And Mike is correct, there isn't consensus from the projects that a Kepler SR3 is warranted versus putting resources on Luna. The feature patch install is easy and just needs to be made more visible, as Mike is proposing to do.

Doug.

________________________________

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org> [cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Mike Milinkovich [***@eclipse.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:43 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
Well, it is more work, but it shouldnt be a lot of work since the bulk of it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse community and Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is desirable. That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps outlined in my email from earlier today.

In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF is proposing to do.
--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org<mailto:***@eclipse.org>
+1.613.220.3223_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org<mailto:cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

Konstantin Komissarchik

2014-04-04 14:40:59 UTC

Permalink

There was general agreement on the wording and agreement that these
downloads do not in any way replace Kepler SR2 downloads, but I heard
nothing to suggest that the Planning Council ruled out the tab or the banner
option. In both case, any amount of appropriate cautionary wording can be
added once the users follow the link and we certainly don't use the tabs on
the downloads page only for releases.

> I mentioned putting something in the right panel, not necessarily in the
Related Links section but maybe in it's own section above the Related Links.
I think that's a nice compromise.

If the link is on the right, it would need to be far larger in size than the
current Related Links or people will have hard time seeing it. Something
like the ad banner. A separate section similar to Related Links would be too
easy to miss.

In any case, it would be best to continue discussing the exact details on
the bug. I only responded to this thread because David has accused me of
misrepresenting what the Planning Council has decided.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 7:27 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR2 with Patches
pre-installed

I think David's main point and I think there was agreement on was that these
downloads need to look very different from official releases. That rules out
a tab (which isn't very prominent anyway) and a link in the mix with the
other downloads (which is too prominent). I mentioned putting something in
the right panel, not necessarily in the Related Links section but maybe in
it's own section above the Related Links. I think that's a nice compromise.

Doug.

_____

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 10:19 AM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR2 with Patches
pre-installed

David,

As long as we are clarifying things. The Planning Council did decide to
label it as "Kepler SR2 with Java 8 patches applied", but I heard no
resolution to the question of how it should be presented on the downloads
page. Several options were discussed, including a tab (my personal
preference that I labeled as such in this e-mail) or a banner similar to a
promoted download, but no conclusion was made. In particular, the Planning
Council did not resolve to expose this through a link in small font under
"Related Links" as you propose in the notes. In fact, I made it clear
several times that my offer to produce these packages is conditioned on the
result being prominently displayed on the downloads page and not hidden
where people have a hard time finding it.

I do not see anywhere in my e-mail that I have misrepresented what the
Planning Council has decided and deeply resent the implication.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of David M
Williams
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 12:02 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR2 with Patches
pre-installed

I wanted to correct the title of this note and thread, since it was clear,
that the planning council in no way considers this "SR3" and one of our
cautions was not to "oversell it".
It is after all, making something available for mass downloads, that has not
had any quality control at all. In theory it should work just fine ... but
no quality engineer would ever accept "in theory" as adequate quality
control. While the probability of surprises is low, the consequences of
surprises is high -- we'd could end up giving a bad impression in the
community and industry -- the opposite of that we are trying to do. (And as
everyone knows, "satisfaction" is highly related to what ones pre-conceived
expectations are).

Similar, the recommendation of "stable", Java 8, Luna 6 as the tabs is
opposite, from what Planning Council recommended. In no way, should SR2 +
Patches be presented as "above" the Official Service Release -- it is no
release at all -- it is simply "Kepler SR2 with patches pre-applied" (which
is the wording the planning council recommended), as well as placing the
links on the existing "Java 8" page that the EF has kindly provided. And I
have already communicated all this to the, EF (Wayne) as we agreed in the
meeting.

We really appreciate Konstantin doing this work, but felt I had to speak up
and clarify on several items, he is giving his view, not the view of the
Planning Council.

Luckily, the Eclipse Foundation "owns" those pages, and as always, they can
decide themselves how to balance risk with "marketing".

And to clarity one more thing ... I will not argue further about this on
this list ... so will not respond again to this topic on this list, as in my
experience that would be counter productive if not disruptive. So if the
conversation continues, my silence does not imply agreement ... nor that I
do not care -- I care deeply. I am responding this once trying to correct
any mis-representations of "what the Planning Council said". And, beside,
the purpose of this list is to communicate about the Simultaneous Release,
not to argue or editorialize. So, let's get on with Luna ... and Mars!

I hope I have accomplished in making things clearer, as well as expressing
our sincere appreciation to Konstantin for producing the Kepler SR2 Release
with Patches pre-applied,

Thanks for reading.

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>,
Date: 04/03/2014 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

_____

The Planning Council met yesterday and approved creation of Kepler SR2
packages with Java 8 patches installed.

<https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_02_2014>
https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_02_2014

Per the planning council resolution, I sent an e-mail to epp-dev giving the
package maintainers an option to opt-out of this. So far, there has been no
opt-outs. The deadline to opt-out is by the end of this week. Similarly, I
send an e-mail to m2e-dev to confirm that there are no objections to
inclusion of m2e 1.4.1 release to clarify previous statements made on this
thread. Igor Fedorenko has indicated that they have no objections.

In the meantime, I wrote a script to do the necessary work and the packages
are available now.

Of the twelve Kepler SR2 packages, three (cpp, parallel and testing) do not
contain any of the patched components and are excluded from this effort.

Packages
========================

I am reusing Sapphire's Hudson instance to build these packages as I am not
an EPP committer.

<https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild
/artifact/releng/java-8/packages/>
https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/
artifact/releng/java-8/packages/

Script
========================

<https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild
/artifact/releng/java-8/build.xml>
https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/
artifact/releng/java-8/build.xml

The script downloads all of its own dependencies, including ant-contrib and
the various Eclipse bits. All you need to run it is Ant. Copy the script to
an empty folder and execute "ant" from this folder.

The part of the script that takes the longest is the download of the Kepler
SR2 packages, but the downloads are cached so that if something causes the
script to abort in the middle, you will not need to re-download everything.

The Kepler SR2 packages are checksum verified after the download or after
fetching from cache.

For each of JDT, PDE, WTP and M2E, the script installs the patch/update if
the target is found.

Downloads Page
========================

It would be good to start working on the required changes to the downloads
page. I opened a bug to track this portion of the effort.

<https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=431955>
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=431955

My recommendation is to add "Java 8" as a tab between "Packages" and
"Developer Builds".

On a somewhat unrelated note, I think the existing tab labels could be
improved.

Packages - This does not adequately define the content found on that tab
since all of the tabs contain packages. How about "Stable" instead?

Developer Builds - This does not define which stream the builds are from.
That is, this tab does not lead to developer builds from the maintenance
stream nor to i-builds, etc. How about "Luna M6" instead?

If the above proposal is accepted, the tabs would be. Stable, Java 8, Luna
M6

Final Steps
========================

Per the planning council resolution, no sign-offs are required from package
maintainers. I have done a few basic sanity checks on a couple of packages,
but I am mostly relying on automation to ensure the integrity of these
packages. If anyone would like to conduct a few tests before these packages
are made public, you have until the end of this week to do so.

On Monday, I will need help from an EPP committer or a webmaster to move the
packages to their final location. I am not an EPP committer, so I don't have
write access to that area of the downloads server. Does anyone wish to
volunteer ahead of time to help me with this? I recommend the following
path.

/technology/epp/downloads/release/kepler/SR2-Java8/

Once the mirrors have been given adequate time to sync, the downloads page
changes can be made public and the new packages publicly announced. I hope
that we can make this happen by early next week.

Thanks,

- Konstantin

From: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Konstantin
Komissarchik
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 7:45 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Clearly debating this further will not lead to anything productive, so how
about this instead.

I will volunteer to write a script that takes existing Kepler SR2 packages,
installs the Java 8 patches into them and re-packages them. I will do all
the work if I have a commitment to publish these packages at a reasonable
location in eclipse.org main downloads area.

- Konstantin

From: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:26 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I understand your frustration. I think your efforts would be better spent
though trying to convince the community to action with hard data, like the
number of users who are switching to Java 8 right now that can't figure out
how to install the feature patch. Is there a bug report where this is being
gathered?

Doug.

_____

From: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:03 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
You seem to be saying that I don't know how these releases are put together
or who does the work. That's low.

You are quite right that there is no consensus. It is quite sad to see this.
There is lots of talk about needing to make ensure that Eclipse remains
competitive, but when time comes to do something concretely towards that,
there is little interest. Let there be no mistake, it is a bad completive
position to have Eclipse ship official Java 8 support three months behind
the competition. For developers immersed in Eclipse internals daily, it may
not seem like a big deal to ask users to seek out and install various
patches or to use a Luna pre-release build or to just wait, but average
users don't see it that way.

- Konstantin

From: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
<mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:35 PM
To: <mailto:***@eclipse.org> ***@eclipse.org;
Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Yes, you have to remember, the Foundation doesn't put together releases, the
projects do. And Mike is correct, there isn't consensus from the projects
that a Kepler SR3 is warranted versus putting resources on Luna. The feature
patch install is easy and just needs to be made more visible, as Mike is
proposing to do.

Doug.

_____

From: <mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org>
cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Mike Milinkovich
[***@eclipse.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:43 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
Well, it is more work, but it shouldn't be a lot of work since the bulk of
it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse community and
Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is desirable.
That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps outlined in my
email from earlier today.

In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've
started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF is
proposing to do.
--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
+1.613.220.3223_______________________________________________
cross-project-issues-dev mailing list
cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
<https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev>
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cross-project-issues-dev

Daniel Megert

2014-04-04 14:51:42 UTC

Permalink

No, a tab is fine (at least for me), but as said, let's discuss the
implementation in the bug.

Dani

From: Doug Schaefer <***@qnx.com>
To: Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org>
Date: 04.04.2014 16:26
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR2 with Patches
pre-installed
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

I think David's main point and I think there was agreement on was that
these downloads need to look very different from official releases. That
rules out a tab (which isn't very prominent anyway) and a link in the mix
with the other downloads (which is too prominent). I mentioned putting
something in the right panel, not necessarily in the Related Links section
but maybe in it's own section above the Related Links. I think that's a
nice compromise.

Doug.

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 10:19 AM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR2 with Patches
pre-installed

David,

As long as we are clarifying things? The Planning Council did decide to
label it as ?Kepler SR2 with Java 8 patches applied?, but I heard no
resolution to the question of how it should be presented on the downloads
page. Several options were discussed, including a tab (my personal
preference that I labeled as such in this e-mail) or a banner similar to a
promoted download, but no conclusion was made. In particular, the Planning
Council did not resolve to expose this through a link in small font under
?Related Links? as you propose in the notes. In fact, I made it clear
several times that my offer to produce these packages is conditioned on
the result being prominently displayed on the downloads page and not
hidden where people have a hard time finding it.

I do not see anywhere in my e-mail that I have misrepresented what the
Planning Council has decided and deeply resent the implication.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of David M
Williams
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 12:02 AM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR2 with Patches
pre-installed

I wanted to correct the title of this note and thread, since it was clear,
that the planning council in no way considers this "SR3" and one of our
cautions was not to "oversell it".
It is after all, making something available for mass downloads, that has
not had any quality control at all. In theory it should work just fine ...
but no quality engineer would ever accept "in theory" as adequate quality
control. While the probability of surprises is low, the consequences of
surprises is high -- we'd could end up giving a bad impression in the
community and industry -- the opposite of that we are trying to do. (And
as everyone knows, "satisfaction" is highly related to what ones
pre-conceived expectations are).

Similar, the recommendation of "stable", Java 8, Luna 6 as the tabs is
opposite, from what Planning Council recommended. In no way, should SR2 +
Patches be presented as "above" the Official Service Release -- it is no
release at all -- it is simply "Kepler SR2 with patches pre-applied"
(which is the wording the planning council recommended), as well as
placing the links on the existing "Java 8" page that the EF has kindly
provided. And I have already communicated all this to the, EF (Wayne) as
we agreed in the meeting.

We really appreciate Konstantin doing this work, but felt I had to speak
up and clarify on several items, he is giving his view, not the view of
the Planning Council.

Luckily, the Eclipse Foundation "owns" those pages, and as always, they
can decide themselves how to balance risk with "marketing".

And to clarity one more thing ... I will not argue further about this on
this list ... so will not respond again to this topic on this list, as in
my experience that would be counter productive if not disruptive. So if
the conversation continues, my silence does not imply agreement ... nor
that I do not care -- I care deeply. I am responding this once trying to
correct any mis-representations of "what the Planning Council said". And,
beside, the purpose of this list is to communicate about the Simultaneous
Release, not to argue or editorialize. So, let's get on with Luna ... and
Mars!

I hope I have accomplished in making things clearer, as well as expressing
our sincere appreciation to Konstantin for producing the Kepler SR2
Release with Patches pre-applied,

Thanks for reading.

From: "Konstantin Komissarchik" <***@oracle.com
>
To: "'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-***@eclipse.org
>,
Date: 04/03/2014 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org

The Planning Council met yesterday and approved creation of Kepler SR2
packages with Java 8 patches installed.

https://wiki.eclipse.org/Planning_Council/April_02_2014

Per the planning council resolution, I sent an e-mail to epp-dev giving
the package maintainers an option to opt-out of this. So far, there has
been no opt-outs. The deadline to opt-out is by the end of this week.
Similarly, I send an e-mail to m2e-dev to confirm that there are no
objections to inclusion of m2e 1.4.1 release to clarify previous
statements made on this thread. Igor Fedorenko has indicated that they
have no objections.

In the meantime, I wrote a script to do the necessary work and the
packages are available now.

Of the twelve Kepler SR2 packages, three (cpp, parallel and testing) do
not contain any of the patched components and are excluded from this
effort.

Packages
========================

I am reusing Sapphire?s Hudson instance to build these packages as I am
not an EPP committer.

https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/releng/java-8/packages/

Script
========================

https://hudson.eclipse.org/sapphire/job/Java-8-Packages/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/releng/java-8/build.xml

The script downloads all of its own dependencies, including ant-contrib
and the various Eclipse bits. All you need to run it is Ant. Copy the
script to an empty folder and execute "ant" from this folder.

The part of the script that takes the longest is the download of the
Kepler SR2 packages, but the downloads are cached so that if something
causes the script to abort in the middle, you will not need to re-download
everything.

The Kepler SR2 packages are checksum verified after the download or after
fetching from cache.

For each of JDT, PDE, WTP and M2E, the script installs the patch/update if
the target is found.

Downloads Page
========================

It would be good to start working on the required changes to the downloads
page. I opened a bug to track this portion of the effort.

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=431955

My recommendation is to add ?Java 8? as a tab between ?Packages? and
?Developer Builds?.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I think the existing tab labels could be
improved?

Packages ? This does not adequately define the content found on that tab
since all of the tabs contain packages. How about ?Stable? instead?

Developer Builds ? This does not define which stream the builds are from.
That is, this tab does not lead to developer builds from the maintenance
stream nor to i-builds, etc. How about ?Luna M6? instead?

If the above proposal is accepted, the tabs would be? Stable, Java 8, Luna
M6

Final Steps
========================

Per the planning council resolution, no sign-offs are required from
package maintainers. I have done a few basic sanity checks on a couple of
packages, but I am mostly relying on automation to ensure the integrity of
these packages. If anyone would like to conduct a few tests before these
packages are made public, you have until the end of this week to do so.

On Monday, I will need help from an EPP committer or a webmaster to move
the packages to their final location. I am not an EPP committer, so I
don?t have write access to that area of the downloads server. Does anyone
wish to volunteer ahead of time to help me with this? I recommend the
following path?

/technology/epp/downloads/release/kepler/SR2-Java8/

Once the mirrors have been given adequate time to sync, the downloads page
changes can be made public and the new packages publicly announced. I hope
that we can make this happen by early next week.

Thanks,

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of
Konstantin Komissarchik
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 7:45 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Clearly debating this further will not lead to anything productive, so how
about this instead?

I will volunteer to write a script that takes existing Kepler SR2
packages, installs the Java 8 patches into them and re-packages them. I
will do all the work if I have a commitment to publish these packages at a
reasonable location in eclipse.org main downloads area.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 4:26 PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

I understand your frustration. I think your efforts would be better spent
though trying to convince the community to action with hard data, like the
number of users who are switching to Java 8 right now that can't figure
out how to install the feature patch. Is there a bug report where this is
being gathered?

Doug.

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Konstantin
Komissarchik [***@oracle.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 5:03 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
You seem to be saying that I don?t know how these releases are put
together or who does the work. That?s low.

You are quite right that there is no consensus. It is quite sad to see
this. There is lots of talk about needing to make ensure that Eclipse
remains competitive, but when time comes to do something concretely
towards that, there is little interest. Let there be no mistake, it is a
bad completive position to have Eclipse ship official Java 8 support three
months behind the competition. For developers immersed in Eclipse
internals daily, it may not seem like a big deal to ask users to seek out
and install various patches or to use a Luna pre-release build or to just
wait, but average users don?t see it that way.

- Konstantin

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org [
mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] On Behalf Of Doug
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:35 PM
To: ***@eclipse.org; Cross project issues
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?

Yes, you have to remember, the Foundation doesn't put together releases,
the projects do. And Mike is correct, there isn't consensus from the
projects that a Kepler SR3 is warranted versus putting resources on Luna.
The feature patch install is easy and just needs to be made more visible,
as Mike is proposing to do.

Doug.

From: cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org
[cross-project-issues-dev-***@eclipse.org] on behalf of Mike
Milinkovich [***@eclipse.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 1:43 PM
To: 'Cross project issues'
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Kepler SR3 for Java 8?
On 27/03/2014 1:28 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:
Well, it is more work, but it shouldn?t be a lot of work since the bulk of
it is automated and I would think that the value to Eclipse community and
Eclipse reputation would outweigh the investment.

My impression is that there is no consensus that a Kepler SR3 is
desirable. That is part of the reason why we're proposing the steps
outlined in my email from earlier today.

In any event, I think that posting on this thread was a mistake. I've
started a new thread and will hopefully get some feedback on what the EF
is proposing to do.
--
Mike Milinkovich
***@eclipse.org
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